The Green New Deal

IONITY to increase electric vehicle charging prices 500% – Electrek

It is 792 miles from Paris to Madrid. The trip would cost about $350 and require the battery be recharged at least five times. That is 50 hours of recharge time, meaning the trip would require at least five days.

 

Another option would be to take an airplane for $67, and arrive in less than three hours.

google flights paris to madrid – Google Search

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55 Responses to The Green New Deal

  1. Jim Hunt says:

    Now you’re getting on to my “specialist subject” Tony!

    Your point is?

    Who in their right mind would choose to drive an e-tron from Paris to Madrid in a hurry?

    Here’s a picture of Lisa my LEAF, parked outside the UKMO’s high performance computing centre. For some strange reason she has never left the shores of the once Great Britain:

    • spike55 says:

      my “specialist subject”

      Another one you know NOTHING about , hey.

      Like Arctic Sea ice.

      • Jim Hunt says:

        Good morning Spike (UTC),

        See if you can spot Snow White on this list of the world’s leading experts on my “specialist subject”:

        https://www.iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=103:14:533157845591::::FSP_ORG_ID,FSP_LANG_ID:20380,25

        “Like Arctic sea ice”?

        • Gator says:

          Bigfoot hunters have specialists too.

          Founded in 1995, the BFRO is now the oldest and largest organization of its kind — a virtual community of scientists, journalists, and specialists from diverse backgrounds. The researchers who compose the BFRO are engaged in projects, including field and laboratory investigations, designed to address various aspects of the bigfoot phenomenon. As a result of the education and experience of its members and the quality of their efforts, the BFRO is widely considered as the most credible and respected investigative network involved in the study of this subject.

          https://www.bfro.net/REF/aboutbfr.asp

          There you are, you are just as credible as any of those Bigfoot experts.

  2. Login n reason says:

    Now we have the lunacy of this hitting the UK. Minister Michael Gove has just announced the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles has been brought forward to 2035 in order for the country to meet its targets on being ‘carbon neutral’. So we are all going electric, with no new nuclear power stations, no new natural gas stations and no discussion on how all these electric vehicles are going to be recharged (overnight!). When I speak to people and ask them what is the biggest greenhouse gas most can’t answer and are astonished when I explain it is water vapour. They all think it is CO2. Also could someone tell me when the world will run out of lithium

  3. Steve Case says:

    Electric cars aren’t made to take on a road trip because of the range and recharging time. You can do it, but what’s the point? As a second car to zip around town? Oh yeah.

    This past Christmas, I got a ride in a Tesla on a 60 mile round trip from San Jose to Big Basin up and down a winding mountain road. It was as if the road were flat. The trip down didn’t require braking because of the regenerating feature. I did some driving around town – Wow! Take your foot off the “gas” and the car comes to a nice gentle stop. Step on it and experience neck snapping acceleration.

    For some stupid reason Tesla and the other makers of these things aren’t marketing them as a city runabout. VW is the only one that makes a relatively small hatch-back. like I would love to have.

    • Bill says:

      Look up Tesla Supercharger Map on google. Tesla has thousands of fast chargers at strategic locations all across the US. I’ve taken many long trips of 1,000 miles or more in my Model S.

      • Mark A Luhman says:

        Go to North Dakota and Northern Minesota, you can drive over 750 miles and there are zero recharging station. Add in a week ago Monday I was in Bismarck the ambient temperature was -8 that morning. Good luck driving Tessa in that weather. Oh by the way Fargo in 1997 had 72 hours of no temperature above -22 do you really you would survive a road trip in a Tesla in those temps. I have traveled over 380 mile in temps no warmer that -15, drive in -50 temps something no Tesla can do. When you have and electric car that .ca work in any temperature let me know, what you presently drive is a death trap for the roads and temps I drive. And presently I live in Arizona, yet my worth takes me to the cold Northlake of my childhood and most of my adult life, somehow I don’t think you Tesla can transport me 1800 miles in two day espicaly when you start day not in the afternoon.

      • Robertv says:

        Nobody is saying you can’t make a long trip with an electric car. But for the moment using a patrol car you can do it much faster.

      • Gator says:

        About a decade ago I was convinced that my next vehicle would be a Tesla, then reality kicked in.

        On a nice spring afternoon when the temperature is around 70, said Timothy Grewe, “I can get 270 miles no problem,” from his Chevrolet Bolt EV with a fresh and fully charged battery. But on Thursday, when Detroit was in negative territory, the chief engineer at the General Motors electric propulsion lab said, “I got around 170.”

        That’s the same story you’ll hear over and over again. In some cases, range gauges will show an optimistic figure, then draw down power at an alarming rate. Other vehicles will display a significantly lower-than-normal figure to start with.

        https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/05/tesla-jaguar-and-nissan-evs-lose-power-in-freezing-temps-.html

        I prefer vehicles that reliably perform in all conditions. Toys are fun, but not meant for serious working people who need serious reliability.

        • Colorado Wellington says:

          “I prefer vehicles that reliably perform in all conditions.”

          Reliable, eh? Now you unmasked yourself. Such a white, First World thing to demand.

        • Jim Hunt says:

          As an addendum, all of that is irrelevant if your EV use case is commuting from home to your place of work and back. For the vast majority of people at least.

          Then of course there is also UPS’s use case:
          https://www.pressroom.ups.com/pressroom/ContentDetailsViewer.page?ConceptType=PressReleases&id=1580304360144-453

          “UPS today said its venture capital arm, UPS Ventures, has completed a minority investment in Arrival, which makes electric vehicle (EV) platforms and purpose-built vehicles that offer a highly competitive value proposition when compared with both traditional internal combustion engine vehicles, as well as existing EVs. Along with the investment in Arrival, UPS also announced a commitment to purchase 10,000 electric vehicles to be built for UPS with priority access to purchase additional electric vehicles.”

          • Gator says:

            Wrong again Genocide Jim.

            I commute from home, and an EV would not meet my needs. I need 4WD, defrosters, heated seats and mirrors, a heater that works, and I cannot draft off of semis on my commute. There are no chargers in between my home and office. I also need towing capacity and plenty of cargo space, and do not feel the need to spend $100,000 for this “luxury”.

            Some of us live in the real world Genocide Jim, free of cities, and citiots like you.

            And why would I want to burn coal?

      • Julia says:

        At this point in time Tesla may be first off the race-t0-save-the-planet-grid, and making Musk an even bigger billionaire, but what happens when all the competition joins in the race and the grid they are all having to feed off is powered only by renewables.

    • Tel says:

      I would like a small two-seat electric sports car … but genuinely small and light. Absolute maximum curb weight should be 750kg, less would be better. Would not need much luggage space, and it would be intended for short trips, with a slow overnight trickle charge.

      Something like an electric version of the Polaris Slingshot would be OK, but for my tastes a lightweight closed in roof to keep the rain off might be nice (even an aluminum & polycarbonate shell is fine), and doesn’t need to be quite as flashy as the Slingshot … but that would be the general ballpark of the design.

      The nutty thing is that electric car makers don’t play to their strength (acceleration, ease of driving, light weight, regenerative braking in stop/start conditions) but instead they try to prove to themselves they can do whatever the gasoline cars can do and they make these unworkable big heavy touring cars and sell them with the promise you can take them on long drives. Newsflash: hydrocarbon fuel is ahead on energy density by something like a factor of 10, so the big rig trucks will always be diesel and the touring cars will always use something like gasoline or LPG.

  4. Finlay says:

    Sorry that this is not directly related to the Article but could Mr. H have a look at this please ?- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24021772 . This is what the wonderful, impartial !!! beeb is putting out as a generalised summary re Climate.

  5. Bob Hoye says:

    Massive short squeeze rallying TSLA stock!

  6. James Snook says:

    And the U.K. government announced today that it is bringing forward the total ban on the sale of diesel and petrol fuelled cars to 2035. Absolute lunacy on so many levels.

  7. Manfred Kintop says:

    But taking a cheap flight doesn’t allow one to virtue signal!

  8. GeologyJim says:

    Virtue signalling is a very expensive vice (heh-heh), and apparently has serious side effects on the brain

  9. G W Smith says:

    Saving the planet is worth the minor inconvenience.

  10. Johansen says:

    They (Tesla, Rivian, Audi, etc) count on the fact that the math is too complicated for people to do a cost-benefit analysis. Kilowatts? KWh? Amps? Amp-hours? Power vs. Energy? People can’t compare. They also can’t do a ‘payback’ analysis to save themselves. So it’s just an emotional/ signalling purchase, or they want 0-to-60 mph in 3 seconds regardless of the cost

  11. Eric says:

    10h at 220v is information for home charging only.

  12. Ron Simmons says:

    VERY interesting…….

  13. Kees Versnel says:

    Petrol car will cost you about 200 euro Je probably have to stop 5- 6 times to rest for at least 1 to 2 hours. So the trip will take you about 20 hours. In this example it only 2,5 times faster and about 40% cheaper! I don’t want to have an electric car!

    • Robert Austin says:

      You would only have to stop twice for gas. If you have two drivers, 12hr 20 min is easy. Lots of Canadians do the similar distance in one shot going to Florida to to escape winter. Marathon driving is easily done with fossil fuels, not so much with electrons.

  14. John Dawson says:

    I think you’ve dropped a decimal point somewhere Tony when it comes to charging at proper charging stations rather than at home. The 10h at 220V you highlight implies a charging rate of around 7-9kW whereas the fast chargers promoted by Ionity would probably take only an hour or so (I haven’t looked up the exact numbers here). However I agree that 70 Eurocents per kWh is a ridiculous price.

    For clarity for 3 years I have been a Tesla Model S owner (a pretty basic 75D) in the UK. This achieves about 3.3 miles per kWh averaged over the year and the initial charging rate for a depleted battery at superchargers is about 350 miles per hour (120kW). It takes about half an hour to add 120 miles, enough for a pee and a coffee every couple of hours (at my age the bladder isn’t as robust as it once was). Overall this doesn’t add much to a long journey time compared with a petrol or diesel car, and it is a lot more relaxing.

    Most of my charging is done overnight at home on Economy 7 electricity. This costs about 7.5 pence (roughly 9 Eurocents or 10 US cents) per kWh, so about 2.5 pence per mile. Thi sis comparable with the cost of tyres; other than that there have been no significant running costs so far.

    • The Dark Lord says:

      3,701 miles of expressways in the UK … 108,394 miles of expressways in the US …
      we have single states with more highways than the entire UK …

    • Al Shelton says:

      Have you added in the cost of a probable highway maintenance license fee foe EV owners?
      The ICE owners pay a tax on gasoline do they not?

    • Rosco says:

      The problem isn’t whether or not the cost of an electric charge at home is cheap or expensive.

      The problem is when thousands of commuters arrive home at night and plug their cars in to charge and the already inadequate electricity grid collapses !

      • Russ Wood says:

        “inadequate electricity grid collapses !”
        Already happened, in Melbourne, Australia! Apparently one single street had four (yes, FOUR) electric cars, and when they all tried to charge one evening, the entire street’s power circuits blew.

    • Johansen says:

      John, except you have to replace your S’s “engine” at around 100,000 miles, at a cost of $10,000-15,000, right? Or has the cost come down…

  15. Leonard Harris says:

    And today the British PM announced that the target for banning all new petrol / diesel cars was being brought forward from 2040 to 2035. Do they really think that the public will put up with this madness once they are faced with the real cost and huge inconvenience.

  16. John F. Hultquist says:

    For about $85 (Washington State price of gas) I could make that trip with one ( 1 ) refill of my 2016 Subaru Crosstrek and a couple of pee stops.

  17. David Scott says:

    I am assuming that solar panels are converting what would be heat energy on the earths surface to electricity. Wouldn’t that actually cool the earth? How many panels would it take to cause that? 1% of the earths surface covered by panels result in 1% reduction of heat? 1 degrees centigrade?

  18. Daniel B· says:

    Hey Tony,

    You will likely find the following recent BBC News article very amusing as they’re now walking back some of their most extreme predictions, putting them down to mere “confusion”, LOL:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51281986

  19. Iain says:

    I really appreciate most of your stuff Tony, but I think you missed an important point here.
    The charge rate you get from Ionity stations _claims_ to be up to 350kW. (https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html)

    Audi says it will take 150kW, so an 80% / 160 mile charge is 30 mins. (https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron/charging)
    That’s still 2.5 hrs from 5 30-min stops adding to ~13 hrs of drive time. And of course it doesnt make it cheaper.

    What a lot of people dont take into consideration is that a lot of the price of fuel (especially in Europe) is tax. Tax which is generally not applied to electricity for vehicles at anything like the same rates – yet. Governments are applying massive tax incentives to get people to switch to EVs.

    Here’s a calculation on gasoline vs EV with taxes broken out, comparing the etron SUV with the Q8 (the model Audi compare it to).
    Q8 (https://www.auto-data.net/en/audi-q8-generation-6294)
    800 miles / 1300 km @ 6.8l/100km = 88 litres diesel (taking the 2018 286HP model) or 118 litres gas (the 2019 340HP gas model)
    88l diesel = ~140 Euro, of which ~83 Euro is tax, 57 fuel & delivery
    118l unleaded (at motorway prices) ~ 200 Euro of which 128 is tax, 72 fuel & delivery.
    (working off prices I was charrged this weekend on the autoroute, x-referenced against https://www.mylpg.eu/stations/france/prices/ – naturally autoroute prices are at the max!)
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax)
    I cannot find anything specific about taxes/subsidies of EV charging, so I’ll assume it is the std VAT / sales tax of 20%.
    so – 5x 63.20 = 316 euro, of which 26 Euro is tax, and 290 is “electricity and delivery”.

    So the energy and delivery for the EV is 290 compared with (max) 72 for unleaded ; basically 4 times the price.

    If people think that the taxes will just ‘go away’ when most people have been persuaded to buy EVs, they are simply delusional about that too. Excluding the VAT, which is also charged on the electricity, the surtax on fuel brings 13.7Bn Euros in (2013). Total tax revenue in 2013 was 966Bn, so fuel duty is ~1.5% of total.

  20. Well, if you’re going to tax coal, you have to start somewhere! :-)

  21. jack b :-) says:

    This is the p t barnum issue with (pure) electrics. This whole global warming nonsense is really just a scam to take out the oil states’ votes & donors asap. Once accomplished, the socialists WILL spend us into debt we’ll never overcome in rebuilding the electric grid to handle alternative energy sources – exclusively. When you shine a critical light on the real problems with that wholesale – and totally unnecessary – changeover, they just double down on their bogus climate modeling. We’ve already lost the public schools’ young skulls full of mush. Maybe these real world power prices will get their attention. We all knew that it was coming – they’ll all be screaming for free juice soon… from us taxpayers.

    jack b in midland, tx.

  22. Steven Parker says:

    Electric drivetrains are awesome. Unfortunately, their fuel storage leaves much to be desired. I’ve never understood the push for electric vehicles. Seems it would make more sense to put efforts into renewable liquid fuels rather than rebuild the entire transportation infrastructure.

    • Mark A Luhman says:

      If we had inductive transfer of electricty to the vehicle as it when down the road and the batteries for where that does not happen. Electric vehicle would make sense, head, cold and charge time would become moot. Until them all an electric car is a nitch vehicle for people that like to think they are vitrious.

    • Robertv says:

      “I’ve never understood the push for electric vehicles”

      They don’t like the little people to travel in a way they can’t control.

  23. James Snook says:

    The photo of the Ionity charging station is typical of every general purpose station that I have seen, certainly in the U.K.:only one bay out of six with an EV in it. With their projected price increase even that one will soon disappear.

    Outside of the Tesla fan club a significant EV market just doesn’t exist.

  24. kzvx says:

    ‘Saving the planet’ is going to be jolly expensive and it’s not going to make a blind bit of difference to the climate!

    • Peter Carroll says:

      It’s not about saving the planet, that is an illusion. As Ottmar Edenhofer, economist, policy adviser to the IPCC and co-chair of the working group on the Mitigation of Climate Change, 2008-2015, stated.
      “One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with the environmental policy any more, with problems such as deforsetation or the ozone hole, we redistribute de facto the worlds wealth by climate policy”.

    • Tel says:

      I suspect the real purpose is to punish poor people, keep them in their place.

      Capitalism has put things like affordable private transport into the hands of the working class … which is very upsetting to anyone who wants to think of themselves as slightly better than average. Therefore restrictions must be imposed, but they need to have appropriate appearance and religious justification.

      For example, in ancient Rome, wearing purple was considered high status. Partly because purple dye was expensive to manufacture, and partly because of legal restrictions on who could wear this colour and how much you were allowed to wear, based on rank and social position. Modern chemistry made it cheap to produce pretty much any colour you want, but purple is still quite popular. There’s no longer any restriction on who can wear it … therefore the status signal of being allowed to wear purple has gone away. People seek out new status symbols to display their self-importance. The lower classes can catch the government allocated but and train service, while the higher classes will get their (very overpriced) electric private transport (with suitable government tracking installed of course). For the planet, you understand? No … you probably wouldn’t understand.

  25. Bruce of Newcastle says:

    Only 5 times?

    New test reveals electric cars are practically unusable in winter (30 Nov)

    A new comparative test of the car picture shows that electric cars massively lose range in winter. In frosty temperatures, the range of four out of five test candidates dropped to under 70 kilometers, and that of the Renault Zoe to under 60 kilometers.

    Due to its enormous battery, only the Tesla Model S was able to reach a range of over 200 kilometers even in winter temperatures, but the luxury car is in a price range (it is available from 78,000 euros) that most drivers simply cannot cope with.

    And don’t turn on the heating or you’ll be out of electrons even quicker.

    • Stewart Pid says:

      Bruce what I find amazing is even when u do turn on the heater the Tesla heaters aren’t very effective in the cold. There was a video of a guy travelling at -26 C and his Tesla X said 400 km of range at the start of the trip and after getting home and travelling 145 km he had 90 km of range left and he had used about the same electricity heating as he did travelling and in the video the family was dressed like they were outside with parkas and toques in the Tesla X …. I was travelling the same -26 C day and after 30 minutes my daughter asked me to turn down the heat and the Honda Odyssey did the 300 km trip on less than 1/2 a tank while a Tesla would be frozen half way home.
      Not ready for prime time in the great white north of Canada … currently -10 C on my deck & we have several more months of winter left before spring sprungs.
      Jim Hunt gave his car a name …. is anyone surprised?

      • Al Shelton says:

        AND… don’t forget that up here in Canada we have windshield and rear window defrosters; also heated seats and mirrors.
        Another thing people miss, is that a car moving about 50kph has a wind chill factor.
        According to the chart the vehicle travelling at 50kph has a temperature due to wind chill of -49C when the outside temp is -30C

  26. Oztruthseeker says:

    It is also my understanding that most electric car batteries only last ten years at which point you cannot replace the battery, you have to replace the whole car which would add even more to the unaffordability of this unnecessary and not value for money or the environment piece of equipment, again bringing up the thorny (for Alarmists) question of how to dispose of cars, batteries, solar panels and wind turbines when they have reached the end of their short lives.

  27. establ says:

    Why Gas Engines Are Far From Dead – Biggest EV Problems

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hatav_Rdnno

  28. Darwin Grigg says:

    When working toward my EE degree back in the early 1960s, our senior class did a group design project on a hybrid car, using a 1955 Buick Roadmaster as the basis for the design (it just happened that the instructor was driving that particular vehicle). In essence, our design simply replaced the drive train from the engine on back with an electric generator with a series DC motor in each wheel. Our study showed such a vehicle shoud be capable of greater than 50 mpg at the then-highway-speed of 65 mph, and turn in excess of 100 mph in the quarter-mile from standing stop. Only drawback was it would require hauling a trailer loaded down with 10 tons of computer in order to safely control it. Now my smart-phone has more computing power than would be needed to control such a vehicle.

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