“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”
– William Pitt
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Seems like several supersocial politician have only been waiting for the momen to come to go full fascist.
Of course the NWO was never about freedom
but about forcing people into submission
be it by propaganda and shaming
or by dumbing them down with toxic injections.
Nazi you mean. Remember the Mussolini was a Fascist but Hitler was a Nazi who disliked the Fascist movement.
Of course, both forms of dictatorship were against personal freedom.
Hitler was anti Communism / Socialism – Fascism is all about the State which i believe Hitler was for it
Call it Nazi call it Fascist call what you want. It’s about control. The definition of “to govern” is “to control.” On a scale of zero to 100, where zero equals total self control and 100 equals complete control by a government (never achieved yet), all governments, including the U.S. government are over the 50 mid-point heading for 100. A right-wing dictatorship and a left-wing dictatorship are both dictatorships.
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Any American who voted For/Against Trump, ya’ll are to blame for this Dementia ridden Dictator..
Sorry…I meant to say anyone who voted for Biden and against Trump are responsible for this dictator.
I thought “democracy” won in the last election.
I better go back and check with CNN.
Democracy didnt win- voter fraud put in motion by Pelosi and the LEFT stole the election- all one has to do is look at voter count at 3am in the morning to see voter numbers were dumped for Biden- never in the HISTORY of voting in USA did this occur
Really this forced vaccination problem has already been decided by the SCOTUS. In a forced blood draw case before the supreme court, it was upheld in a 5-4 majority that you cannot stick a needle into someone’s arm, lacking an emergency/exigent government compelled interest or a search warrant based on probable cause. Based on the LAWS standard of “emergency”, Covid comes nowhere close.
MISSOURI v. MCNEELY CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF MISSOURI No. 11–1425. Argued January 9, 2013—Decided April 17, 2013
“this Court has never retreated from its recognition that any compelled intrusion into the human body implicates significant, constitutionally protected privacy interests”
“in this case, which involved a compelled physical intrusion beneath McNeely’s skin and into his veins to obtain a sample of his blood for use as evidence in a criminal investigation. Such an invasion of bodily integrity implicates an individual’s “most personal and deep-rooted expectations of privacy.”
“Noting that “search warrants are ordinarily required for searches of dwellings,” we reasoned that “absent an emergency, no less could be required where intrusions into the human body are concerned,”
The SCOTUS has defined the exigency necessary to bypass probable cause and the search warrant requirement in the below listed recent unanimous ruling. It states that death or injury must be imminent before 4th amendment requirements can be waived.
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES No. 20–157 EDWARD A. CANIGLIA, PETITIONER v. ROBERT F. STROM, ET AL. ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIRST CIRCUIT [May 17, 2021]
(Emergency) to bypass the search warrant process is defined as “to render emergency assistance to an injured occupant or to protect an occupant from imminent injury.’” It would be very easy to prove in court that Covid is not existential to civilization and its true death numbers fall far short of other causes of death. Could a public health officer close down businesses that contribute to obesity or diabetes? Could Joe Biden be arrested for allowing Fentanyl to pour into our country.
The only imminent injury is from the jab. Could you imagine for example, in my county in California, where more people die from overdose than Covid, the public health officer wave the necessity of a search warrant or probable cause for searches. The same folks pushing vaccine mandates, well their heads would explode.
4th Amendment too.
It may not be as simple as that, but in all likelihood the Federal Government does not have any power to impose vaccination mandates.
The SCOTUS has upheld vaccination/immunity requirements for specific activities, but I believe these have always been imposed at the state or local level, such as mandates to be vaccinated vs meningitis (among other diseases) to attend schools and universities.
OSHA ordering it via the cited mechanism, and doing so only vs certain entities and of a certain size, seems sure to be found the be Complete Bullshit (that’s a legal term).
But any mandate that fails the test of being scientifically derived has to be fought tooth and nail, that much is for sure.
Ignoring such things as immunity to to already having had it, or people pouring into the country illegally not being even required in all cases to be tested(if at all…IDK), let alone required to be vaccinated, is nothing short of institutionalized insanity.
How many illegals will turn around and never come back if told they can only stay if they get a shot of vaccine? Any?
The obvious political motivations will make it nearly impossible for what Biden is proposing (translation…shoving down the throats of pissed off and unwilling Americans) to ever even begin to be enforced.
I suspect they will be forced to walk it back by political pressure within their own party. They are protesting this on the streets in NYC!
On top of all of that, the logistics and specifics of any such rule from OSHA will, according to Scott Gottlieb, mean that it will be Fall of 2022 at the earliest before anything can be formally put in place.
I doubt there will be a person in the US who does not hate Biden long before then. Look at all he has managed to wreck in only 8 months!
William Pitt was a better forecaster than Nostradamus
I will match them shot for shot. I’m not even kidding. All history has lead to this moment. They want to kill me. That’s evil.
What ever happened to “My body, my choice”? In this case, that would actually be a true statement, as no innocents would die as a result of said liberty.
They can change the rules whenever and however they want.
It’s like the old joke about the dictatorships in south america(installed by the cia,educated in the school of the americas)
One day a guy walks his dog.
He is arrested by the police and put into prison because it is against the law to walk dogs.
After he leaves prison he goes for a walk
and gets arrested-because he didn’t have a dog with him.
My body my choice was global cooling.
Mandatory vaccination is global warming.
The line is drawn here! I emailed my employer and told them if they mandate the shots I will clean out the truck and be gone in a heartbeat.
This country is already short by about 40% of the class A CDL drivers needed. Every trucking company in this country is scrambling for drivers including the one I work for.
I’m a salary on-call driver. The job is to go when and where needed and do the troubleshooting to take care of various situations that arise to get the loads through. There are a total of 9 of us salary drivers at the terminal I work out of. They want 10 but nobody signed up for the last position the last time they posted the bid which was just two weeks ago.
Since yesterday I have talked to two other salary drivers and both said they will also leave if the company mandates the shots. I am sure that a significant number of regular drivers would also leave if the shots were mandated.
The key to stopping this crap is federalism. Having enough States that will not comply regardless of what the courts say is the way it can be stopped since relying on the Federal courts, including the SCOTUS, to rule justly on Constitutional matters these days is like relying on a 50 yard Hail Mary pass to win the game.
Regardless, I will not comply and I will do my best to throw sand into the gears of the system that tries to make me.
Just to be clear, I am not an “anti-vaxer”. I have had all the regular stuff most people get plus as an SF soldier I was vaccinated for stuff like Plague and Rabies. The difference is those were true vaccines and these COVID shots are not, and have not gone through the proper FDA testing and approval process. But even if the they had the facts as I understand them are:
1. Your a carrier and transmitter even if you have been vaccinated.
2. No viral contagion in history that has an animal reservoir has been eradicated by the efforts of mankind and this one is transmitted directly by aerosol.
3, The efficacy of the shots is highly questionable.
In addition to the above I will not have anyone tampering with my genetics. The shots are supposed to alter the mRNA so that the virus cannot penetrate and replicate in the cell. mRNA is the coder of genes.
rah, I feel so fortunate to have been retired for over 10 years now. I’m sure the large insurance company I worked for is likely imposing these stupid mandates on their current employees. I’m also not an anti-vaxxer, but I use my own common sense and perform my own due diligence what to take and what to refrain from. I refrain from the flu shots because they are usually at best 30% effective in predicting what that year’s strain will be, and I usually get sick when I stupidly take them (even though doctors tell me that is impossible).
The behavior of these fascist tyrants is both revealing and disconcerting. They are actually demonstrating they don’t believe the vaccines are effective because otherwise, why would it matter if some people choose not to take it? Aren’t those that have protected from those who haven’t? And if it isn’t effective, which “science” shows it isn’t, why are they pushing so hard to get people to take an experimental injection which isn’t effective at protecting people. My suspicious cat spidey sense makes me see this incessant push to get us to put toxic poison into our bodies as being of nefarious intent. I don’t freaking trust anyone in government or the pharmaceutical industry.
I qualify for full SS next month. However, I like what I do and have intended to continue driving a big truck. If one looks at it, their SS payout increases quite a bit if they even work one year beyond the time they qualify for full SS. Also it is a great thing to have very good medical insurance which is what we have where I work.
So my intent was to continue in this on-call position for as long as I am able to do it and then take a dedicated route that gets me home every day that is just enough to qualify for a full time position and thus the great insurance.
Best wishes to you rah! I’m retired but I’d be right there with you. It’s time to take a stand.
Bully for you! I feel the same way. Of course it’s easier for me since I’ve been retired from AT&T for almost ten years now so I don’t have an employer breathing down my neck. A month or so ago I checked and AT&T was only encouraging employees to get the jab. I haven’t checked recently. If I was still working I’d be living in fear they would change the policy.
I do have an out since I nearly died of a blood clot in my right leg a year ago last April. Because of this I decided against the jab and my doctor, bless his heart, concurred with my decision. But it irks me that that I might have to get a doctor’s note to my employer telling them that the jab is contraindicated for me. I’m afraid that in the current political environment some employers would tell someone like me, “We’ll have to let you go in order to protect other employees.” Of course that would be a violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act but in this political environment such protections would be disregarded in the name of the “greater good.”
I’m glad I received my degree in history because history teaches that all authoritarian dictatorships start with the premise that civil liberties must be curtailed because of the “current crisis” and the “greater good.” No one should think it couldn’t happen in this country. It happened here during World War II with the forced internment of Japanese-Americans who were actually CITIZENS of this country. With enough hysteria people like me could be rounded up and interred for the “greater good.”
But unlike the Japanese in this country and the Jewish people in Germany, I will not go quietly into the night. If they come for me someone will die. If it’s me then so be it. I am 71 now and I’ve lived a good life. Standing on principle would be a good way to die and I believe God would approve.
MRNA does not code genes.
Genes are the template for making MRNA in the nucleus.
MRNA cannot and does not go into the nucleus, and even if it did, cannot be inserted into DNA to create new genes.
There are viruses that do that, called retroviruses, but what they do requires several specific proteins in the viral genome.
These vaccines have no such mechanism.
They are MRNA inside a bubble of fat.
We wind up with much more of what occur next when we get infected with covid.
And they are vaccines.
And they are not all the same.
And there are more coming that have no MRNA and are not based on anything like that.
The JNJ one we have now uses a viral vector, not MRNA.
Novavax will be approved soon, and it is a standard protein fragment vaccine.
A vaccine by definition is anything that exposes our immune system to an antigen for the purpose of inducing an acquired immune response.
We have had vaccines for over a hundred years that are not live or killed viruses or bacteria.
It worries me that somehow some people have decided or been convinced of a new and limited definition of what a vaccine is.
And likewise that all of the vaccines existing now and coming along for covid are being lumped together as if they are all the same.
They are not, and many more are coming, and many more are approved in other countries, that are not MRNA vaccines.
I am wondering if those that do not like MRNA vaccines, or any of the presently available ones, will or can be willing to change their minds when more time has elapsed and more data exists, or when never ones are available that meet all of the preferred definitions?
I can understand the lack of trust in the MRNA vaccines, and the doubts about efficacy.
But I am not sure why they are lumped in with other covid vaccines and vaccine candidates.
I am also wondering if the opposition is to any covid vaccine, no matter what, or if ones based on more traditional vaccine mechanisms will be acceptable?
I think you are right about this virus being with us forever.
Even without the animal reservoirs, between genetic drift causing new variants, and people who will not get vaccinated here and around the world, it is obvious we will have this virus forever.
As such, everyone will have to have their immune system deal with it at some point, one way or another.
So to me, the only question is, do I wish to do so with my immune system naïve, or do I want to be primed and have antibodies and memory cells when I get it, if I have not already been so exposed?
Personally, right now, I am trying to find a clinical trial which will expose me to the virus, a so-called direct challenge study.
That way I will get a controlled viral load, plus my exposure will have value to science and medical knowledge.
If I was not planning on being inoculated with a vaccine, I would be looking for a chance to expose myself to a small viral load by finding some infected person and having them cough on me while I was wearing an N95 mask and goggles.
In the manner in which people used to bring their kids to people known to have chicken pox or mumps or measles, to get it over with in a controlled fashion and a known point in time deemed to be convenient.
We cannot hide forever from widely disperse virus or bacteria.
We can only hope to choose the time and manner of our exposure.
“Messenger RNA (mRNA) carries the genetic information copied from DNA in the form of a series of three-base code “words,” each of which specifies a particular amino acid.”
It is a one way message from the nucleus to the ribosomes outside the nucleus.
A read only message.
mRNA stands for messenger RNA.
The pathways for molecules are tightly controlled and very specific.
mRNA is utterly incapable of editing a gene.
It cannot enter the nucleus.
It cannot be inserted into DNA.
For one thing, it is a reverse sense copy of the base pairs in the gene that produced it.
The process of making mRNA, splicing it to remove introns etc, transporting it out of the nucleus, and being read in ribosome to make protein sequences, and it’s subsequent rapid degradation into the molecules it was assembled from, is part of what is called the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology.
Every cell in every living thing is constantly churning out mRNA. It is in everything we eat, every germ we inhale, every cell of every living thing. Once made it must be rapidly transported, read, and degraded, or a cell would not be able to function at all. Gene expression consists largely of how much and when to make which mRNAs.
When someone has covid, trillions of viral particles coated in spike protein are present and more being made in hijacked cells every second. Compared to that, or to the tens of thousands of antigens every human ingests daily, the microscopically small amount of mRNA in a vaccine dose (30 micrograms for Pfizer, 100 micrograms for Moderna…a virtually invisible speck) is only consequential for the ability to induce a short term response in a small number of cells to make the spike protein. Because it is only made inside a live cell, it will produce cellular immunity very rapidly by displaying the protein on the cell membrane. Compared to an entire epithelium being infected with the virus, and each of them budding off spike coated virions by the tens of millions, the process is very efficient at provoking immunity without causing disease…just like what any other vaccine does. At this point it is over a year since the first phase three trials involving over 30,000 subjects each. No safety signals beyond what has been widely reported have ben seen.
And by now hundreds of millions of people all around the world have been dosed with one of the mRNA vaccines.
It may turn out to be an awful mistake, or it may be a huge breakthrough that will transform disease prevention.
All data says it is safe (compared to what it prevents, which is always the standard to judge what “safe” means) and effective at preventing severe illness and death.
We do not have years of data, but I am aware of zero cases of a fraction of a milligram of anything causing a problem years later, with the exception of radioactive substances.
This molecule is graded into constituent nucleotides in a few hours at most. Keeping it from instantly degrading was the hardest part of devising a delivery mechanism. It over 25 years to figure out. It is merely a different sequence of the same nucleotides that occur naturally in every cell in every living thing, and which are made every second of every day by every cell.
Declaring it dangerous and the evidence collected false is at best an example of scary doomster like guesswork, a conclusion arrived by prior conviction, as far as I can tell.
We have all spent year debunking statements from people who use everything but the collected evidence to argue for something that has never happened, and whom no data can convince.
Maybe warmistas are the ones who are correct, but I am sure that is not the case.
Maybe this stuff is the worst poison ever devised, but I see no reason to believe that.
Myself…I knew I would get it and be fine. And I did, and I am. I am closely aware of my body. I can tell you what I felt after getting this vaccine: A sense of victory. I will not get severe covid. If I get a breakthrough infection (I may have had it in early August, and if so it was not even a mild cold…just some yellow gunk in my throat for a couple of days…no fever, no anosmia, nothing that would have been noticeable under any other circumstance) I am sure that I will then be as highly protected as anyone can be…viral exposure immunity layered onto the vaccine immunity.
Repeat exposure is what builds immunity to levels that make us impervious.
But what is occurring politically is very bad, far worse for far more people than a virus, IMO.
Worse yet, the political actions and mad power grab are on top of the virus, and doing nothing to alleviate it whatsoever, as far as I can tell.
Public health authorities are now as full retard as the worst warmista jackass doomsday propagandist.
They are actively preventing such measures as letting people check immunity status by getting tested for antibodies and immune cells, which is the gold standard in use for decades to determine if a person is immune.
No one has ever, until now, even suggested that people who have had a disease need to get vaccinated, let alone prevented anyone from using a blood test to determine immunity status.
I see my doctor next week, and I am fairly certain he is going to order testing for immunity status when I request it. If possible I will get tests that can differentiate between the vaccine antibodies and viral infection antibodies. Most memory cells reside in the intracellular matrix of the relevant tissues, so I am not sure if a blood test can measure or even detect them, but if it can be easily tested for, I’ll get that one too.
I think none of what the Biden clown show will stand up in court, and it will be very damaging for the dems politically.
They seem unaware that the least vaccinated demographics are the core constituency of the Democratic Party…inner city dwellers, and minority populations.
We have antiscience sociopaths in the highest echelons of our public health system.
We have a man who was never a even somewhat smart person, and who is now a senile and doddering angry old man, in the Oval Office.
We have adult children who play dress-up at Harry Potter parties as his staff.
And the whole lot of them believe science is whatever propaganda they can dream up to steal money and grab power.
Against it all, the most powerful tool we have is what it has been all along…level headed rationality, and adherence to evidence based science, and an insistence on disregarding hearsay from the uninformed worry-worts and panic mongers.
My field of study has always been interdisciplinary natural sciences.
I grew up in a medical family.
My father was a medical writer, educator, and publisher.
I did my first internship with the chairman of the department of neuroanatomy at a large teaching hospital when I was in High School.
I have spent decades now studying immunology and virology, on top of my formal study of relevant disciplines when I was in my 20s.
I can tell you anything you need to know or what to know about any of this.
Including the fact that we are in the midst of a blinding blizzard of bullshit from all sides.
I was and remain willing to bet my life on what I know about these vaccines and other therapeutics.
But at the same time, I do not think anyone should be compelled or shamed or browbeaten into putting anything into their body they do not want or do not trust.
If the Federal Government, or one single fool in the White House, can make people do what Biden and his team of irresponsible douchebags can make anyone do this, what can’t they do?
Well stated and very helpful. Thank you.
Agreed. I have a strong medical background as well, and am ‘covid-recovered’ after a very minor bout (using prophylaxis to prevent major infection). Tested positive for the antibodies. The science data shows I have the best type of immunity, long-lasting as well.
Yet the Biden ‘mandate’ does not make a distinction, and instead wants even persons who have exceptionally high immunity to be ‘vaccinated’ with mRNA. It’s not like there is a choice. CoronaVac and other dead-virus vaccinations are not available in the U.S., only the genetic ones.
Even Europe (or at least some of the countries) recognize covid-recovered as not needing a vaccine.
If the vaccine were perfectly harmless, no problem. Unfortunately, it is not.
Mr. McGinley: I assume you are the same McGinley seen posting similar well-reasoned comments at WUWT (the added “Liam”, a fine Irish name, was an insufficient disguise). I valued them then, even though I’d like to see remedies tried. It seems that under the system in place since Reagan reforms, no firm will take on the cost of FDA approval for something that can’t be patented. But I digress.
I have reasoned it through and decided not to get any jab, not because I think they are dangerous (I’m satisfied they are not, and am happy for that, just about everybody I know got jabbed), but because I consider it unnecessary medical treatment. And I greatly appreciate that you do not talk down to the likes of me (given your backround, you could), instead you seem to respect (or at least acknowledge) the fact that I’ll make my choice. The government that forces me to get medical treatment is not the government we founded.
You also see the extraordinary dissonance between dem leaders attacking the unvaxxed like they are all Trump supporters, while the base of the dem party is unvaxxed in astounding numbers. I wonder if the press will ever notice? Well, they’ll notice, but not report it.
Thanks for these comments, worth reading every time.
Nicholas, You’re quite the contributor on this topic. I appreciate what you have articulated here and would be interested in your response to Dr. Joel Hirschhorn’s recent article “COVID Vaccine Dytopia: A Manifesto”.
I’m 90% sure I was infected several months before anyone had heard of COVID/Sars 2. I suspect a lot of people were.
I’m 0ne of those people that works through illness if at all possible. But what ever I had knocked me down so hard that I just couldn’t go. I had been with the company for over 12 years and never failed to run when called until then.
A trip to the immediate med center, a breathing treatment and antibiotics plus an ibuterol inhaler to take home with me. I have had URIs many times and even bacterial Pneumonia, but nothing ever made it harder to breath that stuff. It was a tough 3 days with a dry cough, and constant difficulty breathing.
After 3 days I felt I was well enough to hit the road again. Still using the inhaler and sleeping propped up. In the truck sleeper I actually slept better than home. Think the vibration from idling acted as frappage. It was three weeks or more before I was back to normal,
It is being mentioned from many quarters than many vaccines are mandated in order to attend college, school, etc.
But what the actual practice is, is to require proof of immunity.
If I wish to apply to take classes at a Florida University, I need to show proof of immunity to a long list of diseases.
I do not need to show proof of vaccination.
That would be impossible, for many reason, for me to do so.
Most of the ones I had were done decades ago, and if records exist, no one has any idea of how to find them.
And many of the diseases that now have vaccines are ones that were not yet invented, or not yet widely used, and what happened instead was I had those diseases…mumps, chicken pox, measles, etc.
So the procedure is to go to my doctor and get blood tests for antibodies for each of the listed diseases.
I could also obtain records for those vaccines I have had in recent years and decades (Hep B, influenza, pneumococcal pneumonia, meningitis…) and blood tests for antibodies for the others, or just skip the records search and get blood tests for all of them. This has the advantage of informing me if I had enough doses of say hep B vaccine, to have a titer consistent with immunity. One dose will not do the job. Two may or may not. And all immunity wanes over time, unless repeated and ongoing exposure to the pathogen has reinforced the existing immunity. This is why no one got measles twice (actually a rare case of repeat infection for any disease one can name has always been known to occur, and in some cases repeat infections are not rare at all. This paper I am linking to has a wealth of data, summarizing the info gleaned from dozens and dozens of direct challenge studies on human beings using respiratory and digestive pathogens. Careful reading and following up the links in the reference list is a lot of work and time, but all of this info is from long before any of this became political and hence potentially unreliable. Vaccines or prior exposure can not possible prevent a virus from being ingested. Once ingested, a pathogen will do what they do, namely infect cells and begin to reproduce. Vaccines or prior exposure can only truncate the infection by eliminating the ten day to two week lag between initial exposure to a given antigen and when the body is able to crank out large amounts of pathogen specific antibodies and other humoral immune molecules, plus antigen specific cells.
So infective dose is always important, as are many factors.
Many well known and common pathogenic organisms evade any potential immunity due to prior exposure. Rotavirus and norovirus are specific examples.
Also is a lot of data on routes of infection. Oral ingestion tends to be ineffective at causing infection for many viruses. Most respiratory viruses seem to need to be deposited on the inner lining of the nares, and contact with the out part of the nose will often not lead to infection. Deposition on the eye is a very efficient infection route, comparatively, as the virions then mix with tears and drip deep into the sinus cavity of the face.
Direct exposure (meaning placing live virus in or on the body) can lead to infection but not illness for virtually any pathogen. Infection without illness is common with a wide range of virus types. As is ingestion without infection.
Infection occurs when a sufficient infective dose is present to overcome the barrier and passive humoral protections. Mucus entraps virions, and contains varying amounts of many types of neutralizing molecules. So the may be few or no virions able to get into a cell before being killed, or if they do enter cells, the cells may be destroyed by the immune system before the virus can reproduce and daughter virions bud off from the cell surface to infect other cells.
So that is one possibility…ingestion but no infection. Infective dose matters for this because more virions on initial exposure means more chances some can evade innate immune protections and/or existing antigen specific acquired immune molecules and cells.
If enough virions enter cells and successfully reproduce, there may or may not be a detectable infection. Prior exposure that has induced acquired immunity is very likely to drastically shorten the amount of time it takes to overcome an incipient infection and viral reproduction. All that is required is the amount of time it takes for signaling molecules to broadcast an alert to commence the inflammatory process, whereupon immune memory cells will rapidly travel to the infection site via chemotaxis, and then begin to reproduce, which will commence immediately and quickly accelerate at an exponential rate. Again, if the amount of infected cells is small no detectable infection may exist before the infection is eliminated. This process will have a profound effect though, as existing memory cells will be vastly increased, as will antibodies. Antigen presentation may also occur again with new antibodies and memory cells to separate antigens made, or possibly even different antibodies to the same antigens.
So in that case there is detectable or undetectable infection but no overt illness.
The next possibility is the re-exposure may produce an active infection which escalates to a point of producing overt illness. Note that when we feel sick, what we are feeling is not virus reproducing, but our own immune system manufacturing substances that causes our symptoms. Almost all of these are related to things which will hinder viral replication and spread inside our body…increased mucus flow, inflammation sufficient to cause swelling of the ocular, nasal and respiratory epithelial tissues, muscle and joint pain, fever (which hinder replication by elevating body temp above what is ideal for the pathogen, and which speeds up our own physiological responses), etc. Each of these and the combination tends to also cause a person to not want to move much, thus conserving energy and promoting sleep, both of which are critical for the best immune response. I have calculated that the number of immune cells in an person who is sick can multiply to a significant percentage of body mass…5 to 10 kg or more. IOW, as much as 10% of body mass and possibly more than that.
But even in these instances, a primed immune system will not have the ten or more day lag before any antigen specific cells or molecules are present. Instead, immune cells and molecules will begin to be cranked out almost immediately and can rapidly reach huge numbers, overwhelming the infection before severe disease or risk of death exists.
Vaccines or prior exposure cannot and have never made anyone impervious to viral ingestion. It is what occurs next that is important. When most people or everyone is vaccinated or has immunity due to prior exposure, they can still wind up getting infected and even sometimes shed live virus. But the amounts of them, and the time that viral shedding is ongoing, is certain to be greatly reduced compared to someone who has no acquired immunity. And so the infective dose received by anyone exposed by this person will be less than if the person who exposed them did not have prior immunity. And the shorter window of viral shedding by someone who gets infected despite immunity greatly lessens the number of potential opportunities to pass along the virus.
The effect is multiplicative in a population.
Vaccines and prior exposure do not need to prevent ingestion or infection.
They cannot do that anyway.
What they do is reduce viral replication and hence viral shedding in a population.
People get less sick, less likely to die, and less likely to even be infected, and this tendency propagates as a negative feedback on the ability of the virus to make new copies of itself and infect new people, new cells, etc.
Damp wood or paper can still burn, but not as quickly or as hotly. Fires tend to go out.
Insects that can feed on one plant multiply out of control in a monoculture of that plant, but have a hard time in a natural environment where the plant it feeds on is interspersed with many other kinds of plants the insect cannot eat.
A person with prior immunity can still get infected, but unless that person does not have a functional immune system (which is another very important aspect…many people do not have a fully functioning immune system), the virus will not reproduce out of control, infected cells will be targeted and destroyed more quickly and hence make fewer new virus copies, will not infect as many cells in that person, and the infection will be overcome more quickly, if active infection occurs at all. A person with acquired immunity is very much like damp wood or paper.
Several other critically important but not widely known bits of information can be gleaned from the linked paper and references.
One is that only some infections produce enough of an immune response to be protective of reinfection. The likelihood of a proactive immunity has many factors, besides for the age and health of the infected subject. Again it is found infective dose has a huge effect. Lower infective dose is more likely to lead to no infection, mild infection, mild illness, or asymptomatic infection, but is also more likely, for a range of virus types, to not cause sufficient immune response sufficient to be protective.
Note that these are all studies in which various viruses were applied onto to or within the body of the volunteers. These kinds of trials give info that is otherwise impossible to obtain in any other known way. No self reporting. No random factors beyond the ways individuals vary. Little or nothing discernable in the way of guesswork or supposition.
People given a definite known amount of a pathogen by specific routes of exposure at a known point in time.
Another interesting observation was that numerous viruses were seen to lose virulence when cultured in various ways by passage through live animals, eggs, tissue cultures, etc.
Other ones seemed to increase in virulence by such, but this seems to be rare.
This may explain why there seems to be a dearth of known cases of covid infected animals infecting humans.
The virus may be largely or completely unable to infect humans from a population of cats or minks or whatever.
We know from bird flu studies that birds can spread bird flu to each other, and to humans, but so far at least, no humans have been found able to spread it to another person if infected.
So it may be possible, for example, that cats can get infected from humans, but not able to pass it to other cats, or back to humans. We can not and should not expect we can know without specific information one way or another.
One last thing I wanted to talk about is related to the incredibly bad reporting of various aspects that we have seen from the media and also from public health authorities.
It has been reported, falsely, that people who are vaccinated and get breakthrough infections have a similar viral load to those who are infected with no prior immunity.
This is almost certainly false, and is related to not just misinterpretation of the actual findings, but literally a seeming inability to understand plain English or else unwillingness to read and understand the entirety of data before spewing out scary headlines.
Nasal swabs were found to have a similar TC interval between those with breakthrough infections and those infected with no prior immunity.
But TC time is not a measure of virus.
In fact those tests are in no way quantitative.
They do not even differentiate live virus from killed viral debris containing viral RNS fragments.
Actual lab tests have shown that the nasal swabs from people with breakthrough infection cases contain little if any infectious viral particles.
They also show why the nasal swab tests that are known to not be in any way quantitative are not sold or advertised as being quantitative…because they are not.
It is simply an uninformed and in fact erroneous speculation that TC time may be indicative of the amount of virus present.
The past paragraph in many newspaper accounts I read actually stated that the tests are not quantitative, and that the inference is merely speculative, but despite that info being in the articles, the headline said the opposite, in declarative manner…that viral loads ARE the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated people who become infected.
These same articles barely mentioned that everyone who got sick showed up for testing or hospitalization, but few if any who did not get sick, did the same. So basically the assumption was made that the people who showed up somehow represent everyone who was exposed, when the truth is far from that.
Vaccinated people can still become very ill and even die, but this is a consequence of the fact that some people are not able to generate an acquired immune response, for any of many reasons…advanced age, certain comorbidities, chronic lack of proper sleep, vitamin deficiencies, getting the less effective vaccine (JNJ is only 70% effective, so 30% of people are not fully protected. The numbers are lower for delta variant), having a condition such as cancer, or having been treated with chemo or radiation, having one of many autoimmune conditions like lupus, being pregnant, taking one of the drugs like Enbrel which turns off part of the immune system, having HIV…and many others:
“…pparently viral loads in the vaccinated weren’t as high as they were in the unvaxxed. Another study from the UK confirmed that finding.
This weekend Dutch researchers put out some data of their own harvested from 161 vaccinated health-care workers who suffered breakthrough infections. Their results jibe with the UK study. It confirms that being vaccinated does benefit you if you’re infected, and not just by keeping you out of the hospital. According to this paper, the vaxxed had less infectious virus in their noses and throats than the unvaxxed did even when they had similar viral loads.”
“Results: The delta variant (B.1.617.2) was identified in the majority of cases. Despite similar Ct-values, we
demonstrate lower probability of infectious virus detection in respiratory samples of vaccinated HCWs with breakthrough infections compared to unvaccinated HCWs with primary SARS-CoV-2 infections.
Nevertheless, infectious virus was found in 68.6% of breakthrough infections and Ct-values decreased
throughout the first 3 days of illness. Conclusions: We conclude that rare vaccine breakthrough infections occur, but infectious virus shedding is reduced in these cases.”
I know Rah that I am talking about points you did not raise.
I simply want to pass along some of what I am aware of that I believe many are not aware of.
As a final word in this long comment, I just wanted to mention something I have not heard anyone else talking about.
This is the fact that we have never before tested millions of people over and over again for any disease, even after being vaccinated, even after prior infection. So there is really no way to know if other disease that were vaccinated for produced a large number of mild infections. Mild infections with nearly any virus are likely to not be connected to the deadly disease that was vaccinated for. People ignore colds, they do not go gets a battery of tests to determine the cause…at least not until this pandemic.
But it is well known that for the majority of vaccinations, they are only partially effective after one or two doses. Multiple doses work far better when there is at least six months between doses.
Polio requires as many as four doses to be fully vaccinated.
Tetanus may take as many as ten doses widely separated in time.
Meningitis, pneumococcal pneumonia, hepatitis B…nearly all of them require multiple doses for a person to have a antibody titer deemed fully protected.
The difference is, with most of those, they are not widely circulating in the US, many are not highly transmissible, and no one is getting routinely tested for them anyway, particularly not after vaccination or prior exposure.
No vaccines have ever been 100% effective.
Few disease have ever been eliminated by herd immunity.
Rather, herd immunity protects us from exposure.
The vaccines that tend to be very effective after only one dose are nearly all or may 100% the ones that use a live organism that is either an attenuated strain or a closely related virus, such as the one used to vaccinate vs smallpox. IOW, ones that prodice an active infection.
Even then, no one knows how much immunity anyone has to smallpox after childhood vaccination decades ago.
Measles immunity was found to not be as good as had been supposed, with vaccinated and previously infected people getting measles after the virus was brought into the country by unscreened and infected people from other parts of the world.
Ask for a weekly dose of Ivermectin which some of the FLCCC doctors are taking.
Much safer and good for prevention and treatment.
Since the Summer of 2020, there has been a large increase in peer reviewed studies on the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine, Vitamin D, Zinc, and Ivermectin. There are now over 200 studies showing the efficacy of HCQ, Vitamin D, Zinc, and Ivermectin:
Why is this evidence being ignored by the medical community in Canada?
More evidence of the success of these drugs has been presented by Dr. Pierre Kory and others to the USA Senate.
Here is a protocol developed by doctors in the USA:
The evidence is being ignored for the same reasons as with climate change.
Both have special protections as they are extremely usefull tools to force things onto people that would otherwise be impossible to implement.
As we live in a world where still many people believe that Biden cares about them(forced vaccines)after what he did to his own citizens in Afghanistan
Bidens and Turdeaus bosses know they can get away with anything.
If you are sincerely not aware of the reasons for that which you are asking, I can tell you.
Just let me know.
To summarize without getting into specifics, the reasons relate not to the number of studies, but to the quality of them, and the ability to obtain consistent results that are repeatable and reproducible.
All studies are not equal in merit or weight.
As an example, what would you say to a warmista who used as evidence a count of studies, to confirm that CAGW was exactly as he/she asserted?
The scientific method is a process for separating out suppositions and beliefs from that which can be objectively verified.
It only works when the process of gathering data is objective and free from bias, advocacy, politics, etc, and is carried out by people who are 100% willing to be proven wrong, or better yet, to make no decision on anything prior to a sufficient eight of objective evidence exists.
Part of this analysis has to be the ability to account for all data and results, rather than discarding any evidence that does not comport with something that was decided ahead of time.
On the specific subject of safety and efficacy of a drug to treat a specific condition or ailment, there is a long recognized gold standard of evidence: Well designed and run prospective, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled clinical trials which have a large sample size, well delineated inclusion and exclusion criteria, proper collection of data by skilled researchers, oversight by a neutral suite of experts, etc, and predetermined endpoints used to assess safety and efficacy.
(Safety is a relative thing, and must be analyzed in the context of the condition being treated. Chemotherapy drugs for fatal cancers for example, have different standards of safety that over the counter medicines for a headache. HCQ used for short term malaria prophylaxis has a different standard of safety than when used long term, often for life, on an ongoing basis to treat symptoms of lupus.)
Each of these parameters are well known to be completely necessary to eliminate bias.
Peer review is know by every skeptic to be worthless as a standard for assessing veracity.
It is not part of the scientific method, was never intended to be anything more than a sort of proofreading, and says nothing about the value or weight of the evidence contained therein.
It’s not about “health” either.
As usual, Biden is saying the exact opposite of the truth.
Its important to remember that Joe chooses truth over facts.
The 2020 election was the moment freedom ended in the United States
We ain’t dead yet!
In a country with Direct Taxation (like the income tax) there is NO freedom. It gives those in power the right to know everything about you.
In a country where they can print all the monopoly money needed to corrupt the system there is NO freedom.
Big Government and Freedom are not compatible.
Eric Clapton: “This has to stop.”
Please watch the entire video; pay particular attention to 15:40 – 16:22.
Here in Australia the Premier of Victoria, whose police are brutal enforcers of the never-ending lockdowns, has repeatedly said (and I quote) “This is not about human rights”. The Prime Minister of Australia, announcing vaccine passports recently, said “This is not about human rights”. They think they are God!
Seems Biden and the Australian Minister have all the same script.
The pigs at the farmers table:
Members of Congress and their staff are exempt from Biden’s vaccine mandate https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859?
What puzzles me, and I think it is true, postal workers are also exempt! Why?
Could it be Biden is protecting those whose slight-of-hand helped his ballot race?
I sense the ones pulling the strings are getting very impatient.
It is because this whole thing is been 100% politically motivated, and none of what he is doing is based on science or evidence based medicine.
“CNN contributor Dr. Sanjay Gupta asked Fauci on Friday about a new study out of Israel that essentially confirms people with natural immunity have better protection against Covid than people who are fully vaccinated”
And Fauci had no answer to it.
This was a great interview I saw from Shannon Bream the other day.
There are an estimated 100,000,000 people in the US who have immunity due to viral exposure.
I am still working on being able to think of any possible rationale for the people in charge of public health in the US to not only ignore this, but actively suppress it from being talked about, and from anyone being able to ascertain their immunity status via a simple blood test.
Important to note that immunity status via blood test is what is required, not proof of vaccination, for anyone required to have immunity to the list of 17 diseases.
Here is the link:
Two weeks ago I had a 6 month follow up with my urologist. I did not have cancer but had a severe case of chronic prostatitis that caused two large diverticulum on my bladder Two surgeries and weeks with two foley caths (one passing in through my side) and 35 lb of weight loss later I was on the mend.
I am now doing great so the Doc obviously knows his business and I owe him an eternal debt of gratitude for giving me my life back. I had blood drawn for a PSAT and since they were doing that I asked if they could draw for an antibodies test. The Doc said that frankly he wouldn’t even be able to interpret the result and I would have to see my family practitioner for that.
The lab interprets the result and reports either positive or negative for prior exposure, when I was tested last December.
Of course, that was before vaccines clouded the picture for someone who is vaccinated.
I am not sure what would have happened if I tested positive. They might have reported a quantitative result. Probably ordered a PCR swab to see if I was currently infected or if it had been long enough past to show negative on a nasal swab.
I think any doctor can order the tests, and with the results in hand you can then give them to another doctor who can interpret the result.
Generally the lab doing the analysis reports a number, and some online searching can turn up what the values mean.
I think the FDA or the CDC or maybe both are actively discouraging doctors from ordering these tests, as the guy in the Shannon Bream interview was saying.
This was based on a study that ended 12/31/2020, estimating approximately 30% of the U.S. had had covid, both symptomatic and asymptomatic. At that start of 2020, of course, it was about 0.001%.
I ‘guesstimate’ that we are likely at about 50% now (September 13, 2021) if not higher.
It is utterly irresponsible to not do an antibody test first, to see if a vaccine is necessary. If the vaccine were perfectly harmless, this might not be the case. Unfortunately, it is not.
This is an important point, but there is nuance here as well that cannot be overlooked if the goal is to protect people from harm, which is the rational objective in any health measure.
And this point is that a simple qualitative result of positive or negative to previous exposure will not indicate the level of protective antibodies present.
We really have no way of knowing if someone who has had a asymptomatic case and thus will test positive for antibodies, has sufficient levels of antibodies and memory cells to be protective of reinfection.
We generally tend to think of immunity as a yes no question, and also to believe that we cannot get a disease again once we have had it.
But neither of these has the single straightforward answer many might suppose.
What would need to have been done is to get a quantitative antibody titer result, and this would have to be coupled with very good knowledge of what levels are protective and what levels may not be and what levels are not likely to be protective.
All of that take a lot of very detailed research. And even then, what to do about borderline levels? What if the research gave inconsistent results, which is actually the most common thing to occur in research on infectious diseases?
What to do if it is found that a certain level of antibodies is protective in some people but not others?
And how to get blood test results quickly enough to keep people from dying while waiting for them?
When vaccination rollout occurred in the US, something like 10,000 elderly patients a week were dying in the US.
Did labs have the capability to process tens of millions of blood tests, if we even had tests and data to make give clear answers on protective immune status?
Could they have kept ahead of the need to vaccinate vulnerable people fast enough to keep large number of people from dying who did not need to?
Considering how long it took to get vaccines into arms, even with the supply of doses and willing people clamoring for the shots, it seems doubtful to me.
Public health has to weigh a lot of factors. Evidence based medicine has to use what is known from high quality data.
What we should be doing now is trusting people to work with their doctors to make the best decisions for them as individuals. Anyone who knows they had covid has all along been able to decide not to be vaccinated.
Everyone has had to make an appointment, wait for the day and time of it, then wait in line.
Everyone was asked if they had ever had a positive test, if they have been sick recently or are they currently having any symptoms, and a long list of other questions.
This remains true.
People known to be have covid or have had it in the past are told to wait at least 30 days after all symptoms have resolved, and get only one shot if they choose to get vaccinated.
The clinical trials for Moderna and Pfizer, the large phase three ones that had the enormous sample sizes in the multiple tens of thousands each, gave the vaccine dose to people regardless of covid status, and at the same time as the first dose was given, blood tests and swabs were taken to determine covid exposure status.
The published results of the trials discussed the way those who were found to be positive were treated, both in the data analysis and collection, and regarding subsequent participation in the trial.
Here below are the published results for the phase 3 Moderna trial, which contains the safety info for the people who were covid positive when they got the first dose, plus a link to a NIH summary of the report.
As can be seen in the flow chart in figure one, 30420 people were randomized to get either the drug or a placebo. 15,181 were assigned to get the drug and are included in the safety report.
631 of the group who were randomized to get the drug and got at least one shot were found to be covid positive at baseline (the day and time of the first shot for that person), or had missing data.
“Participants with no known history of SARS-CoV-2 infection but with positive
laboratory results indicative of infection at study entry were included. The study allowed for the
inclusion of participants with stable pre-existing medical conditions, defined as disease not
requiring significant change in therapy or hospitalization for worsening disease during the 3
months before enrollment, as well as participants with stable human immunodeficiency virus
EUA Fact Sheet For Providers:
As an aside, note the neutral language used in this report, the clarity of the data and the completeness of it. This is what clinical trial data is supposed to look like, and how good reports are written, and how well run studies are conducted. It contrasts sharply with lesser quality reports.
They purposely chose to treat a very old, at risk, and unhealthy population of people in this study.
It was very large, far larger than the vast majority of prior clinical trials of any type, ever.
They treated people who were covid positive at baseline but who had no known prior history of covid. These people were included in the safety results but not in the study results, since obviously people who are infected when dosed will skew results.
I am interested though, and the final report next year may provide, data on disease progression in those who got placebo vs drug and who were covid positive at baseline.
Many vaccines have been found to have value post exposure. Some are fully protective of disease if given soon enough (rabies, tetanus, varicella (chicken pox), smallpox, are well known examples). The list of diseases in which post exposure vaccination has been found helpful is much longer than most people are aware of.
November 2019 study:
“Postexposure Effects of Vaccines on Infectious Diseases”
“We searched the PubMed database for clinical trials and observational human studies about postexposure vaccination effects, targeting infections with approved vaccines and vaccines licensed outside the United States against dengue, hepatitis E, malaria, and tick-borne encephalitis. Studies of animal models, serologic testing, and pipeline vaccines were excluded. Eligible studies were evaluated by definition of exposure; attempts to distinguish pre- and postexposure effects were rated on a scale of 1 to 4. We screened 4,518 articles and ultimately identified for this review 14 clinical trials and 31 observational studies spanning 7 of the 28 vaccine-preventable diseases. For secondary attack rate, the following medians were found for postexposure vaccination effectiveness: hepatitis A, 85% (interquartile range (IQR), 28; n = 5 sources); hepatitis B, 85% (IQR, 22; n = 5 sources); measles, 83% (IQR, 21; n = 8 sources); varicella, 67% (IQR: 48; n = 9 sources); smallpox, 45% (IQR, 39; n = 4 sources); and mumps, 38% (IQR, 7; n = 2 sources). For case fatality proportions resulting from rabies and smallpox, the median vaccine postexposure efficacies were 100% (IQR, 0; n = 6 sources) and 63% (IQR, 50; n = 8 sources), respectively. Many available vaccines can modify or preclude disease if administered after exposure. This postexposure effectiveness could be important to consider during vaccine trials and while developing new vaccines.”
Post exposure vaccination is not new and is not controversial, and has almost never been known to cause a problem in anyone.
Of course, with new vaccine trials, occurrence of the known dangers are carefully looked at, and the Moderna report details this concern:
“Investigators also observed no evidence of VAERD among those who received mRNA-1273. This rare complication was seen in individuals vaccinated with a whole-inactivated respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccine in the 1960s, before there was a capacity to define protein structures and measure immune responses with precision. VAERD can occur when a vaccine induces an immune response that is not strong enough to protect against infection.”
Data supplement to the COVE report:
This was based on a study that ended 12/31/2020, estimating approximately 30% of the U.S. had had covid, both symptomatic and asymptomatic. At that start of 2020, of course, it was about 0.001%.
I ‘guesstimate’ that we are likely at about 50% now (September 13, 2021) if not higher.
It is utterly irresponsible to not do an antibody test first, to see if a vaccine is necessary. If the vaccine were harmless, this might not be the case. It is not.
That is a surprise question from Gupta who has been toeing the CNN line.
“…study out of Israel that essentially confirms people with natural immunity have better protection against Covid than people who are fully vaccinated”
This particular point is one that needs to specify which vaccine is being referred to, as they are not all inducing the same antibody levels.
Israel AFAIK, has used mostly or exclusively Pfizer, which is a 30microgram dose given 3 weeks apart.
Moderna is a 100 microgram dose given 4 weeks apart.
It is known that greater time between doses for vaccines gives stronger protection in the long run, with greater than 6 months recognized to be required for the strongest enhancement of antibodies.
But the decision was made to compress the time period between doses due to the huge numbers of people being infected.
The strongest response in the shortest time was the goal. With many things, having two factors means that a tradeoff needs to be made, and speed was judged to be the most urgent requirement.
Pfizer chose a lower dose of active ingredient in hopes of minimizing side effects, while Moderna judged that the side effect profile curve was shallow, while the antibody response curve was steeper, and so they decided a larger dose would give a much higher titer of antibody with little change in side effects.
There are all sort of data points by now, with more all the time, regarding antibody levels in people who got the different vaccines.
It seems to be consistently found that Moderna is providing a much higher antibody level, initially and over time.
But what really matters for severe illness is memory cells. They do not decrease over time as rapidly as antibodies. And they rapidly proliferate and make new antibodies and antigen specific T cells upon exposure. This probably explains why protection vs severe illness and death remains high in all of the studies to date.
In this study that was released a couple of weeks ago from Belgium, antibody levels were compared in health care workers who took part in a prospective study prior to being vaccinated with two doses of either Pfizer or Moderna.
Many of them had previously been infected with SARS CoV-2 before vaccination.
“Of 2499 health care workers who received 2 doses of SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccines, 1647 participated in this study. A total of 688 were vaccinated with mRNA-1273 (mean age, 43.2 years; 76.7% women; 21.8% previously infected with SARS-CoV-2), and 959 with BNT162b2 (mean age, 44.7 years; 84.9% women; 13.2% previously infected).”
Antibody titers were measured after the second dose, and levels for those who had gotten Moderna were over 2.5 times higher than people who got Pfizer:
“Higher antibody titers were observed in participants vaccinated with 2 doses of mRNA-1273 compared with those vaccinated with BNT162b2 (geometric mean titer [GMT], 3836 U/mL [95% CI, 3586-4104] vs 1444 U/mL [95% CI, 1350-1544]; P < .001) (Figure, A)."
Those who had been infected before vaccination had higher levels than those who had not been, confirming that repeated exposure to the antigens increases immune response (Imagine how many times those of us who had measles as kids were exposed, as it was constantly circulating over all those years!), and again Moderna vaccine gave higher levels in all situations than Pfizer:
"Previously infected participants had higher antibody titers (GMT, 9461 U/mL [95% CI, 8494-10 539]) compared with previously uninfected participants (GMT, 1613 U/mL [95% CI, 1539-1690]) (P < .001). In both groups, those vaccinated with mRNA-1273 had higher antibody titers compared with those vaccinated with BNT162b2 (previously uninfected: GMT, 2881 U/mL [95% CI, 2721-3051] vs 1108 U/mL [95% CI, 1049-1170]; P < .001; previously infected: GMT, 10 708 U/mL [95% CI, 9311-12 315] vs 8174 U/mL [95% CI, 6923-9649]; P = .01). The difference in antibody levels according to previous infection was higher than the difference between the 2 mRNA vaccines (Figure, B and Table)."
Younger people had more antibodies than older age groups, and was highest among those under age 35, and again, Moderna gave higher levels of antibody vs Pfizer across all age groups. This is all exactly what I for one expected would be the case, both from early data, and from what is known about the relationship between age and acquired immune response in general…our ability to produce an acquired immune response wanes with age:
"Antibody levels negatively correlated with age in previously uninfected participants (correlation coefficient, −0.22; P < .001), being highest among those younger than 35 years. Across all age categories, previously uninfected participants vaccinated with mRNA-1273 had higher antibody titers compared with those vaccinated with BNT162b2 (P < .001 for all comparisons; Figure, C).
The type of mRNA vaccine remained independently associated with the log-transformed antibody titer in a multiple linear regression (P < .001, Table)."
Note that getting vaccinate after having had the disease made a larger difference than the difference between the two vaccines. Prior infection increased antibody levels by a factor of almost 6 over those who had not been infected!
Interestingly, Moderna recipients had a antibody level, in absolute number, on average between 1700 and 2500 units higher across all comparisons.
The summary notes the limitations of this data set, and that it is only an indication of greater protection, not proof.
I am going to look and see if there are studies out looking at antibody levels in people who had breakthrough infections after being vaccinated, which is what would be relevant for me. Also of interest for vaccinated people is newer and better data on the relative risk profile of vaccinated vs unvaccinated, and between the vaccines, regarding the chances of getting a symptomatic breakthrough infection.
Most of what I have seen so far is of limited value, comparing to date infection numbers for the vaxxed vs unvaxxed, which go back to the period when few were vaxxed. Hard to conclude much from that sort of comparison.
Or else they look at the relative number of people in hospitals or who have died, or they look at cases.
None of those metrics is very useful, because they do not compare equivalent populations chosen beforehand. If old people are most vulnerable, and risk goes up for the elderly, while vaccine efficacy goes down for them vs younger people, it is never going to be apples to apples to look at absolute numbers across multiple demography categories rather than percentages and matched populations.
Good studies start out choosing people first, separate into cohorts of people who have one difference between them overall, and then follow them over time.
And with any study of anything, greater weight comes when a similar study looks at the same question in different people, and comes to a similar conclusion.
Here is one from Israel that looks at a question raised in the original phase 3 data from Moderna…finding a "correlate of protection". This is something like a Holy Grail of immunity, and having evidence of one could eliminate the need for large trials of newer vaccines, and allow good conclusions to be made more quickly and with smaller sample size.
11,500 workers at a single hospital, among whom 39 had breakthrough infections. All were mild, but a few had lingering symptoms of the mild illness.
"For 22 of the 39 workers with ‘breakthrough’ infections, the authors were able to obtain antibody measurements taken either on the day the infections were detected or in the week before. The researchers also examined data from 104 fully vaccinated workers who matched infected workers for factors such as age but who did not get infected. Comparison showed that levels of neutralizing antibodies were lower among those who got infected — providing the first direct evidence of this effect, says Davenport."
There is all kinds of data available, and more every day, but in most cases, one has to look for it. It is not in headline news and not to be found in most social media.
As more people are vaccinated for longer periods of time, we will have increasingly useful and powerful data.
I predicted as soon as the pandemic started that it is likely to lead to an explosive increase in understanding and treatment of infectious diseases.
We are seeing that.
It will accelerate.
AIDS caused gigantic leaps in medical knowledge across a wide array of separate aspects.
This is sure to be far larger.
Researchers are standing atop a mountain of information, essentially all that has been learned to date, and large numbers of people are working on this, and money is being supplied around the world in unprecedented amounts.
Lots of people will never know anything about it though.
my late 20s “dyed in the wool, yellow dog” registered democrat announced yesterday that she is finally done with that party. She has acknowledged in the past that she disagreed with most dim policies (immigration, abortion, taxes, climate…) but was raised to believe the dims “are for the little guys”. The most refreshing thing she said was “they’ll take my gun from my cold, dead hand”.
The vaccine tracker lists 177,433,000, fully vaccinated. That leaves 152,000,000 unvaccinated. I wonder why they keep saying 80,000,000. And why haven’t the 30,000,000 one vaccine wonders not gotten the second dose. hmmmm?
Joe Biden, 2020: I will not take a vaccine if the President tells me to. Who would take it? Would you?
Joe Biden, 2021: I order every man and woman and child older than 12 to take this vaccine! I am fed up!
Democrats: My Body, My Choice.
Also Democrats: Screw Your Freedom.
Blah blah blah…stay out of decisions something something something…between me and my doctor…yada yada yada, take this medicine or else!
I know what it’s about. The billions $$$ the elites have spent attempting to discover the fountain of youth has revealed the corollary, accelerated aging. I think this is what the injections ultimately do.
An already noted side effect that could be the main intention is telomerase exhaustion from the trillions of s-protein translations.
Now we just need Bill’s Soylent Green factories to counter globull warming and we wont need cricket and cockroach burgers.
I have been struggling to figure out what this is really all about. It is obvious that public health has nothing to do with it. The so-called “vaccines” do not prevent contagion and appear to only work for a limited time. And as the virus mutates, the so-called “vaccines” become less and less effective. Furthermore, the “vaccines” appear to be dangerous long-term. Antibody dependent enhancement looks like a real possibility in the next couple of years and infertility and cancer haven’t even been looked at.
In chemical/biological warfare delivery is by far the biggest technical issue. A mandated bioweapon injection, particularly one with a long latency period, is ideal in the kind of war we appear to be in right now. Maybe it is good old-fashioned greed and control, tempered with ignorance and arrogance, driving this, but I can’t rule out a biological war against the general public.
I agree with you SMNinja, and for young people the short-term adverse effects are worse than getting CV. We can’t know what the long-term impacts are at this time.
Remember that those who push this are those who think there are too many people on this planet.
Yes, but those same people who seem to want depopulation, also want open borders that allow people that reproduce like rabbits to move in large numbers to places where they can do so.
Consistency is not their strong suit, nor is tailoring actions to desired results.
Only the oldest people alive today have any memory of a world in which large numbers of people died every year from infectious diseases.
Vaccines have given us a world in which people have little if any respect, let alone fear of, the danger of infectious diseases.
Long story short, vaccines have gotten us to a place where people can plausibly doubt the value of vaccines.
I received an E-mail for one of the bosses saying they have no intention of mandating the shots at this time. So I am good to go for now.
However the company will be going through a change in upper management next year as the top two retire. So who knows what the future may bring.
It seems like what you do is one where interaction with other people is minimal.
Interestingly, Biden excluded mail carriers and other postal workers from his proposed mandate. These people interact with everyone in the country every day, as least insofar as they handle packages and mail which the recipients will also handle, perhaps minutes later. Proof positive this is not based on anything but politics, and has nothing to do with risk or even logic.
My guess is the head of the postal workers union demanded an exemption. Which is what is going on nearly every day with this administration. The teachers unions demanded the CDC reinstate mask guidelines for school children, and a day or two later the CDC revised it’s guidance. Days after saying masks were not needed in kids at school, they reversed themselves 100% and said the opposite.
Recall how loudly the Democrats howled at their mere delusions that politics might influence anything that happened when Trump was present. To the point that the roundtable that discussed the vaccine results and rollout was delayed from the original plan to have it a week before the election, until after the election. No valid reason was ever given for this, but it is obvious why it was done: The bureaucrats did not want to do anything that might help Trump whatsoever, and so took a step that surely cost lives by delaying the vaccine EUAs.
Today an article detailed the objections from at least three of the largest corporations in the US, including Coca-Cola.
It is clear this “plan” from Biden and his nitwits crew was ill planned, hastily contrived, poorly thought out…and in fact nothing about it was done in a remotely competent fashion.
Illegals at the border let in without getting vaccinated, but mandatory vaccines for US citizens who already have had covid, is just one of details that is completely at odds with what anyone truly concerned with public health would even consider, let alone have as a stated policy.
Included in the letter were a series of questions prompted by a “flood of feedback” from member companies, the CBA stated. Among the questions:
“What is considered documentation for proof of vaccination and how will booster shots factor into compliance?
Must an employee be fully vaccinated in order to work?
Will the requirements only apply to vaccines that are fully approved by the FDA?
Does the government plan to centralize vaccination tracking?
What are the consequences of falsifying one’s vaccination status or test results?
What is considered suitable documentation for a negative test result?
Should employees choose not to vaccinate, is the company or employee responsible for securing and paying for testing? Will paid time off be required for weekly testing requirements?
When will the requirements be formally issued?
How does this mandate impact locations with collective bargaining and existing collective bargaining agreements?
Do the new federal requirements include exemptions for religious beliefs and disabilities?”
I started from Romulus, MI and bumped 6 docks today in MI. Mount Clemens, Port Huron, Marlette, Flint, Alto, and Kentwood in that order, then returned to Romulus. I interacted with a total 9 different people not behind plastic at the terminal in Romulus and at the shippers. However I was in close contact with several others at the truck stop I fueled at and got a 12” Subway, steak and cheese on Wheat.
Today was a day of construction detours. Four major ones and I even ran into a detour within a detour. However the only backup I got caught in was on I-96E between Kentwood and Lancing.But all of it cost time and I had to use the 16 hour duty day exception to avoid a time of service violation. It was a 15 hour day. I Love it!
Obama and Biden payed to create this disease. Now they will force you to vaccinate. Next boosters with more than just vaccine. Some will resist but most will trust. These will be the henchmen of the NWO.
They control the media and tech media. Even conservatives have started to chant this excuse for tyranny. Trump was just a bump in the road.
Power is influence and the law is only as good as the system that operates it. Government ignore their constitutions every day. Evil comes with a smile in a suit and tie.
When was the last time the USA was about freedom ? If you give away your country to a private entity (Federal Reserve) it is no longer We The People but Those Who Control The Money Supply. Since 1913 the USA is a communist like system.
The net is only closing now because the system is bankrupt.
Does the graphite absorb more RF from microwave directed energy pulses? (crowd control or mutagenesis)
Seems graphene has been in flu shots for quite awhile now, is it intended, or just ambient environmental pollution, like acrylic micro-spheres?
One thing’s for sure, many are dying an early death that is not being associated with the concoctions, although it clearly is.
If psyops like quoting ‘died with’ rather than ‘died of’ figures, then presenting ‘cases’ based on the PCR test at 45 cycles had not been employed to obviously inflate the danger to ridiculous proportions, and justifying draconian measures which have destroyed the economy and removed practically all freedoms, I might be inclined to believe the government regarding their claims of the benefits of the vaccine. However, their behaviour over the past two years has merely engendered the deepest distrust to the extent that people are now prepared to believe the extremest tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. The ineffectual exhortation to avoid ‘misinformation’ falls on deaf ears as a consequence. It is no coincidence that the demographics which refuse the vaccine are those that trust the government least.
The media “If it bleeds it leads” mentality is as much to blame as anyone for the maelstrom of often misleading information.
One has to search to find better (meaning higher quality, more nuanced, more balanced, more complete, or whatever) information, but it is out there if looked for.
Very little of what is written or published is done in neutral language, and my perception is that this has gotten far worse in recent years and decades.
For whatever reason, the US has all along required deaths to be of anyone who died with covid, rather than strictly of covid. This is of course problematic for a number of separate reasons, one of which is difficulties in comparing statistical information between countries with other standards in place.
Just this morning I was reading an article describing attempts to discover whether hospital stats are misleading and if so to what degree. Because hospitalization numbers are also listed in term of patients with covid, many of whom are in the hospital for other reasons, or who may be admitted for a short while because of mild illness, remdesivir treatment, or whatever.
It seems hospitalizations seem to be, at least in some cases, reporting covid patients in a way which leads to a factor of as much as 2 in the number of people who are there due to severe covid illness.
This article seems to be at least somewhat neutral in terms of willingness to be objective. For an example, it points out the limitations in broadly extrapolating results from VA hospitals (which have few woman and zero children patients) and pediatric hospitals, to the larger picture of all hospitals.
Here is the link:
The Atlantic is generally left leaning, but they are often very moderate and at times appear middle of the road. Everything has to be read while keeping in mind the possibility of bias of the author, of course.
OT about hurricane Nicholas.
Though the NHC shows it as a minimal hurricane as I write this the satellite loop clearly shows the top being blown off the storm by strong shear out of the west. I would not be surprised if this storm is a TD by this afternoon.
As of the 10:00AM advisory from the NHC, it has max sustained winds of 45 and is a TS.
2:00 update may show downgrade to a depression, which means no sustained winds over 39.
Sometimes high pressure near the storm can keep winds up, and other times slow movement and proximity to the water can keep feeding in enough moisture to sustain large cells near the center. These cells can bring strong winds aloft down to the surface.
In any case, once inland, the main danger is always flooding from rain, and less so from winds and surge.
This one may produce a lot of rain for man days over already saturated ground.
“Not about freedom”. Get away! Really?
I do love the way the silly old fool picks the wrong words and accidentally says something honest from time to time, even though he means the exact opposite.
There are a lot of studies ongoing regarding covid and vaccines, and some of them are very large real world studies.
Here is one I just learned of and was reading through, involving over 350,000 vaccinated and unvaccinated people in a prospective study of vaccine effectiveness.
It looks only at the Moderna vaccine for the vaccinated group.
The study was done by a large health care provider, Kaiser Permanente in Southern California.
It is an interim analysis of a planned five year study in these groups of individuals.
Many in each cohort, vaxed and unvaxed, had previously been infected with the virus, so there is some data on VE, vaccine effectiveness, on people who already had natural immunity derived from infection.
It breaks down protection vs asymptomatic covid, symptomatic covid, hospitalization from covid, and death from covid, as well as data vs each variant.
Like other studies have indicated, this particular vaccine is very effective across all categories, including some indications that previously infected individuals have increased protection from reinfection.
Seems well designed and is very high powered with all those people involved, and is written in neutral language.
Looks to be a lot of data collected as well.
Here is a link to the summary, which has a link on it to download the entire study document of published interim results:
The authors believe that there is evidence that getting vaccinated after having covid gives better long term protection than getting covid after being vaccinated, but that this question needs more data points and more time to reach any firm conclusions.
Moderna also just released a further interim report of the ongoing phase 3 COVE study, with the just released report detailing what has been found re the durability of protection. The 15,000 or so people who got placebo originally were offered the vaccine in January, since once it was deemed to be proven effective, it is unethical to withhold it from the placebo group to see how many of them will get sick, die, etc.
It shows waning immunity but still a high level of protection.
It is being interpreted to show that boosters are a good idea after some amount of time.
This press release seems to indicate the preprint will be released soon.
Here is the summary:
“Analysis of Open-Label Part of Phase 3 COVE Study (July-August 2021)
Today, Moderna is sharing a new analysis of the incidence of breakthrough COVID-19 cases among vaccinated participants in the open-label portion of the Phase 3 COVE study between July 1, 2021 and August 27, 2021. The goal of the analysis is to quantify the impact of waning immunity in the face of the Delta surge in the United States. The analysis compared participants initially randomized to mRNA-1273 (vaccinated from July-October 2020; n=14,746; median follow-up of 13 months since first dose) against participants initially randomized to placebo who were crossed over and vaccinated following Emergency Use Authorization (vaccinated from December 2020-March 2021; n=11,431; median follow-up of 8 months since first dose).
In the analysis, 88 breakthrough cases of COVID-19 occurred in the more recently vaccinated group (49.0 cases per 1000 person-years) compared to 162 cases in the group vaccinated last year (77.1 cases per 1000 person-years). The reduction in incidence rates for participants vaccinated more recently compared to participants vaccinated last year was 36% (95% CI: 17-52%). A Cox proportional hazards model showed similar results after adjusting for age and risk factors for severe COVID-19. Fortunately, only 19 severe cases were observed. While not significant, there was a numerical trend towards a lower rate of severe cases in the group vaccinated more recently (3.3 per 1000 person-years) compared to the group vaccinated last year (6.2 per 1000 person-years).
The increased risk of breakthrough in this analysis quantifies the impact of waning immunity in the COVE study between the median follow-up time of 8 months and 13 months since first dose. The Company believes this adds to evidence of potential benefit of a booster dose of mRNA-1273. A manuscript has been submitted as a preprint to medRxiv and will be submitted for peer-reviewed publication.”