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There is a long historical record of cycles of glacial advance and retreat in Europe, but of course the record’s quality is generally poorer the farther back one wishes to consider. The statement that there were no glaciers during the MWP is likely false. For instance, today ancient artifacts and remains are being revealed that were buried much before then.
If there hadn’t been glaciers on Mount Blanc or it’s vicinity during the MWP then Otzi the ice mans remains and possessions would have most likely not been found intact in the Otztal Alps.
Exactly. http://museum.dnalc.org/otzi/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrdT5tInD1QIVkYizCh0f9A7AEAAYASAAEgInYvD_BwE
Also, Ötzi was found in a relatively flat peak area at about 10,500 ft near Hauslabjoch where the ice doesn’t flow much. It just accumulates and melts. He clearly was covered by snow immediately after his death or even before, and remained buried till surface melt-off exposed the top of his body in 1991.
I was at the ridge in mid-80s. The recent picture below shows the flat top area, with Ötzi’s stone monument in lower right.
The amazing part is that Ötzi and possible companions waged a bloody battle with their enemies at this elevation, and there may have been survivors that depicted it on a stone stela found in the South Tyrolean town of Latsch.
Also, 19 modern men have been identified in the area with a gene mutation linking them to the ancient warrior.
BTW more recent dead have been uncovered since then.
WW I soldiers from the long tough Alpine fight called “the white war” on southern front where Austrian and Hungarian troops faced off against the Italians.
http://www.guns.com/2014/01/16/frozen-bodies-wwi-soldiers-found-preserved-italys-melting-glaciers/
Yes, I’ve read about it in Austrian papers. In hindsight I appreciate nobody was shooting at me during my own excursions in the Alps.
Sud Tirol is still unsettled by it all. The Italians getting what was formerly Australian territory does not sit well with a significant proportion of the natives from the area even now. Or at least that was the way it was when I was in that area during the winter of 87-88.
RAH, I don’t think much has changed in Südtirol since then. That’s why it’s such a tragedy that the European project was kidnappped by the Leftists.
Is there anything in the world that they touched and didn’t fuck up?
I wonder if Ms Griff would have any proposals, regardless how outlandish?
Yep. That same week in 1929 Assistant Atty Gen’l Mabel Willebrandt published another installment of “The Outside of Prohibition”. This was an exposé of how the feds were using asset forfeiture confiscation and taxes to enforce the 5 and 10 Law making light beer a felony. Agents busily raided brokerages, dubbed “financial speakeasies.” British and German heroin, also illegal, was also selling briskly and the proceeds from that and beer were converted into tax-free dividend-yielding stocks. After Willebrandt’s syndicated revelations, the economy quit growing. The situation was much like 2007, with one party pushing asset forfeiture and another struggling to make electricity illegal.
Well the glaciers are certainly melting now…
This article reveals the people lost in glaciers whose remains are now being discovered…
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/04/melting-glaciers-swiss-alps-could-reveal-hundreds-mummified-corpses
But note this from the article:
“Switzerland’s glaciers have been melting at an unprecedented rate, losing almost one cubic km in ice volume or about 900 bn litres of water over the past year. According to an investigation by Tagesanzeiger newspaper, eight of the 10 months in which the glaciers have lost the most in volume over the past century have been since 2008.
Since 1850, when glaciers covered 1,735 sq km (670 sq miles) of Swiss land, the total area has shrunk by a half, to about 890 sq km.”
See this also – in German, but with charts of glacial retreat:
https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2017/gletscherschwund/?openincontroller
Well the glaciers are certainly melting now…
Is this your excuse for starving millions to death Ms griff?
Thankfully. They’ve been melting in fits and starts for over 10,000 years. Of course we know that it was warmer during the Minoan and Roman warm periods than today, and when the warmer times end, it’s back to another glacial period -unless we can do something about it.
Well, it torpedoes a lot of the ski industry in the region…
My son has just finished a week teaching in the Austrian Alps, where the local mayor explained the history of the valley they were studying… he expects a downturn in tourism as the local glacier melts/glacier skiing ends…
How many people did the Mayor say died as a result? Is it more or less than 21,000 per day?
AMO is turning, griff.
Seems the Mayor is just as IGNORANT as you are.
How is that even possible for two people to that ignorant !! ??
Ms. Griff, you should review what was going on back in 1978. In Search of the Coming Ice Age may shock you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_861us8D9M&t=307s
Griff,
Many of then started melting back up the slopes over 100 years ago, did you forget about the LIA?
but now they are melting faster, to extinction
“eight of the 10 months in which the glaciers have lost the most in volume over the past century have been since 2008.”
Again, please list the casualties. Greater than 21,000 per day? No?
Griff, why continue with your lies?
Many glaciers started melting back in the early mid 1800’s when the LIA was fading away.
Muir, Exit glaciers warmist liars tries to scare the public with were melting a lot back in the 1800’s.
Griff wants alpine villages to be engulfed like several were during the LIA.
When I lived in Europe in the 1970’s, that was all the chatter. Glaciers that had been receding were considered a threat once again, and everyone from the scientific community to the alpine villagers considered it a hot topic.
Griff, I’m sure you can use your powers of Google to find glaciers that have grown during all this ‘global’ warming too – there are numerous studies.
It isn’t a picture of continuous melt in the last few decades or even global.
“At least 58 New Zealand glaciers advanced between 1983 and 2008.”
“A new NASA study[2016], released on Friday, admits that ice is accumulating in Antarctica. Satellite measurements show an 82-112 gigaton-a-year net ice gain.”
Where do you think most glaciers are Griff? Clue^^^^^^
More here. https://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm
As for people lost being found – that happens anyway, glaciers flow & churn, shrinking or not, eventually embedded objects emerge – yes obviously melt will reveal objects too.
The only glaciers advancing are ones where melting is accelerating movement…
All non-arctic/antarctic glaciers, except those at highest altitudes, are losing volume/retreating
How many are dying?
Back to levels of before the LIA.
A RECOVERY from those freezing extremes.
Wouldn’t you agree, griff… or will you continue to DENY the facts.
“The only glaciers advancing are ones where melting is accelerating movement…
BULLSHIT !!
“The only glaciers advancing are ones where melting is accelerating movement…”
That is possibly the most ignorant comment you have ever made, and that is really saying something.
What you say is impossible. Learn something about glaciers.
The Ms Griff show has run its course. To keep her on the air, the writers had her jump the shark before they quit the show in disgust.
In the present installments, the desperate newly-hired show writers had her marry the shark and raise their cute children in the bay. Some of the new writers have resigned in protest already but the rest are feverishly writing the next episodes about the family immigrating to the underwater Islamic state of Maldives.
https://www.pastemagazine.com/blogs/lists/2012/10/10-jump-the-shark-moments-in-tv-history.html
Still no evidence presented,from you Griff.
You are one stupid person who can’t understand that the LIA was a time for great glacial expansion,now that the LIA faded a way 150 years ago,many have been melting back ever since.
Why do you live in a fossil fuel heated southern UK ghetto, griff.
If you like the cold so much, you should move to Siberia.
But you won’t will you.
Your constantly wet bedsheets would freeze solid.
Pointing out the physical evidence of what is actually happening in the world does not mean I like it or prefer it, it is just what is happening.
I fail to understand why you get so upset about the facts… and resort to name calling, no factual counter evidence
How about the 21,000 that will perish today because of alarmists like you? Isn’t pointing that out important?
Why do you continually DENY the FACT that current levels of sea ice are FAR higher than they have been for most of the last 10,000 years.
Why are you wetting your bed about a highly beneficial recovery from EXTREME sea-ice levels of the LIA and the late 1970s???
What AGENDA are you trying to push with your moronic chicken-little prattling. ! ??
“Well the glaciers are certainly melting now…”
And they are finding human artefacts and carbon deprived trees underneath them
What does that tell you, are is your nappy too sodden for you to actually think?
That the glaciers in this time are melting away and will contine to melt.
The direction of the glaciers is conditioned by current climate trends, which show no sign of reversing.
whatever happened in the past or may happen in future, now they are in retreat from specific, current, in play causes, which will continue.
Again Ms Griff, can you tell us if the melting glaciers are killing more or less than 21,000 people per day?
WRONG as always.
You just make this CRAP up, don’t you griff.
“conditioned by current climate trends, which show no sign of reversing.”
You mean the ZERO warming in 40 years apart form ocean based El Nino events ?
Is that the trend you mean.
….. or the trend that is coming because of the sleepy sun.
DOWNWARDS.
Griff, just a question.
How did those human remains get there in the first place?
They got there at a previous point when the glaciers retreated.
and now the glaciers retreat again.
but it is not impossible that now the immediate cause of retreat is NOT the same as before… that this time there’s a different influence. Is it?
The retreating glaciers, how many humans are dying daily as a result?
WRONG again
AMO is turning down. Going to be HILARIOUS watching you slithering and squirming as ice around the world starting gaining again. (even though it would be far preferable if it didn’t)
You are, as always, chronically mis-informed.
You do know that just like the Arctic sea ice and Greenland total ice, the world’s glacier have been through a period of EXTREME COLD, called the Little Ice Age.
Or were you IGNORANT of that, as well.??
“but it is not impossible that now the immediate cause of retreat is NOT the same as before… that this time there’s a different influence”
If you snort enough “stuff” you could probably come up with some anti-science load of garbage.
But reality shows that nothing out of the ordinary is happening with the climate, except it seems to be a bit more benign that in the semi-recent past.
The TOTALLY NATURAL, and HIGHLY BENFICIAL warming out of the LIA has levelled off for the last 40 years at least (was almost certainly warmer in the NH in the 1940’s but temperature data has been corrupted).
So your little anti-science FANTASY that its “something different” is nothing but a load of substance induced bulldust.
Griff, keep repeating this same crap over and over without evidence.
This is flat out trolling!
Look up EXIT Glacier.
Look up Muir Glacier.
They are examples warmists lie like hell over,since they start their lies in the last 50-75 years of the glaciers history. Leaving out the 1800’s completely.
Here is a blog post with links to research on Glaciers:
More Alarmist Nonsense About Glaciers
“1) Glaciers have been retreating since the 18thC
Glaciologists are absolutely clear that Alaskan glaciers have been receding since the late 18thC, as the Earth began to claw its way out of the Little Ice Age. For instance, the USGS have put together this map of how the Glacier Bay glaciers have gradually retreated.
The vast majority of the glacial retreat was in the 19thC, long before SUV emissions.”
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/glacierbaymap_thumb_thumb.gif?w=500&h=545
The USGS add:
“The glacier that filled Glacier Bay during the Little Ice Age began its retreat from the mouth of the bay more than 200 years ago and has exposed a magnificent fjord system about 100 km long. The massive glacier retreated past Sitakaday Narrows ~190 years ago, retreated past Whidbey Passage ~160 years ago, and reached the upper end of the main bay by 1860 (~140 years ago) ”
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2015/04/02/more-alarmist-nonsense-about-glaciers/
You are one incredibly ignorant person!
“Since 1850”
The end of the Little Ice Age, you moronic cretin !!!
FFS, wake up to reality, and get some understanding of basic history.
With every comment, you look more and more like you never had rational thought in your whole meaningless life !!
Always the AGENDA-driven bed-wetting !!!
Andy, it is significantly warmer in the US since January. Panic and raise taxes, then starve millions to death.
Its significantly colder down here,
This is an amazing coincidence, wouldn’t you say ;-)
Still…. they are panicking and raising taxes.
Only starving likely down here will be in electricity
If we have a normal warm summer, things could get quite interesting on the supply side now Hazelwood has shut down.
All due to renewables and the CO2-HATRED agenda.
Ms. Griff, the glaciers have been melting for 3oo years.
Since 1850? How much of this melt timed with the end of the Little Ice Age between 1850 and 1940? How much has melted within the last 20 years? Without accurately answering those questions, any speculation from that article is meaningless.
I was taught at school (50 years ago) that the NH glaciers were the remnant of the ‘last ice age’. But more recently scientists studying ice cores said that the oldest glacier in the NH was a mere 4.5 thousand years old, and it was right up in the arctic circle. The only ice during the Holocene Optimum was on Greenland.
If this is true it suggests glaciers come and go and we needn’t be precious about them.
What about Norway and wasn’t Otzi the ice man covered about 5300 years ago?
http://museum.dnalc.org/otzi/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrdT5tInD1QIVkYizCh0f9A7AEAAYASAAEgInYvD_BwE
Poor Professor Bouchayer… nobody at the Ecole had bothered to explain to him that ‘thinking outside the box and challenging the accepted dogma’ was not in the interests of his career. He did finally land a position at Prairie Community College teaching freshman botany, a subject he wasn’t really trained for
Interesting documentary about the Medieval Warm period and Little Ice Age.
They talk about the Glaciers in the first 5 mins:
Little Ice Age Big Chill Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LObn2Sk7tVg
Thankfully that ended about 150 years ago. You don’t you are people freezing to death today in September in the Northern hemisphere.
The Exit Glacier, in Alaska. Obama visited it in and the media shrilled his warnings of, ‘we caused all of this [melting] and we must stop it or our children will never see it.’
From a National Park Service report, ‘The retreat of the Exit Glacier.’
Only 847 years ago that forest was mowed down by the advancing glacier. Only recently was it uncovered. With a little bit of luck and continued warmth, we may be lucky enough to witness trees once again taking root here at this location, and a forest being born. Give us a couple hundred more years of this warmth (don’t even need any additional warming) and history will have repeated itself once again.
This empirical evidence of the MWP being either warmer than today, or nearly the same, and for that period of warmth lasting much longer, has, and continues to be discovered all around the globe.
The warmists and their compliant media do not want the people to find out.
This 6 page PDF report from the National Park Service shows that the vast majority of the melting was before 1950:
“The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a time
of global cooling from approximately1350
to 1870 AD. During this time glaciers
expanded in the northern regions, moving
down the mountains and scouring the
vegetation that had been in the valleys
below. Park Service personnel recently
discovered evidence of a buried forest
dating back to at least 1170 AD high in the
Forelands near the current glacier’s edge.”
https://www.nps.gov/kefj/learn/nature/upload/The%20Retreat%20of%20Exit%20Glacier.pdf
The melt rate table is on page 8,that shows it melted a lot and from early in the 1800’s.
Tony Heller, you need to send that clipping to Michael Mann.
Study done on Mt Baker glaciers
ps.. note the date when it started to retreat
Before that , it was advancing
It looks like natural cycles …
chuckle.
Jimbo and griff are well and truly into the irrational, attention-seeking, bed-wetting cycle.
Happens every year at this time. :-)
and strangely enough the arctic ice gets less every year and has never recovered to anything like the pre 2006 level in over a decade…
Ms Griff, the Arctic is recovering from the LIA, and will someday fully recover and be ice free just like it was previously.
Why do you hate poor brown people?
And yet its STILL far more than90-95% of the last 10,000 years.
Why are you constantly wetting your nappy about a highly beneficial RECOVERY from the EXTREMES of the coldest period of the whole current interglacial
Your cognitive emptymess is that of a tape worm !!
Arctic sea ice is slightly POSATIVE TREND for the last decade.
STOP LYING, griff. !!
Griff, can’t admit the stabilization of the ice cap.
Those are long periods!
That’s what I thought. Why didn’t the genteel climate gentlemen of the 1980s, for example, say?
Never mind, I think I know …
It may have been that their predecessors produced mixed signals…
Swiss glaciers
Glaciers come and go. They advance and recede. But it doesn’t take much common sense nor knowledge of natural history to know that times have been better for mankind when they are not advancing.
True, though some ladies of our acquaintance like it better when they are advancing.
Except when you base a tourist industry round them.
Or more importantly except when major cities have developed, which depend on glacier fed rivers for their water supply.
Who is dying as a result? Tourists? Tour guides?
About 1.5 million people in the Hindu Kush potentially…
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/climate-change-may-impact-hindu-kush-himalaya-water-supply-4437390/
Or don’t you care about ‘brown’ people?
So nobody then.
Ms Griff only cares about “potential” poor brown people, and not the real poor brown people she is helping to snuff out daily.
Here we see the mental disorder that makes up a leftist. Ms Griff only believes she cares about poor brown people, when in fact all she really cares about is her leftist agenda. She is fine with killing millions as long as it moves her agenda forward, and will claim otherwise, again to move her agenda forward.
Observe the sick leftist, as she seeks high moral ground atop the pile of dead bodies she has helped to create.
griff has hallucinogenic gullibility of “may” and “perhaps” from climate models.
beyond stupidity. !!
get back to REALITY you mindless twerp !!
So -what does this has to do with AGW?
Nothing!
When you built a city at a “wrong” place
as result of current short term circumstances that lead to the building of the city,
you can not prevent the catastrophy(=no water supply)
from happening by trying to stop warming(especially when it does not exist)
All cities around the world suffer more or less from cyclical changes-and this will never change.
BTW- the last thing you should be worried about is water supply in the alps and other mountain regions
as there is tons of rain every year and water reservoirs can be much more easily built with damns than in flat regiond.
I see… a few thousand years ago, all the cities of Northern India were built in ‘the wrong place’?
a few hundred years ago the towns and cities of the Andes were built ‘in the wrong place’?
so what’s your solution to the water supply of millions of people drying up?
Give them water?
Ms Griff only cares about “potential” poor brown people, and not the real poor brown people she is helping to snuff out daily.
Here we see the mental disorder that makes up a leftist. Ms Griff only believes she cares about poor brown people, when in fact all she really cares about is her leftist agenda. She is fine with killing millions as long as it moves her agenda forward, and will claim otherwise, again to move her agenda forward.
Observe the sick leftist, as she seeks high moral ground atop the pile of dead bodies she has helped to create.
While on an Alaskan cruise back in 2006, our ship toured Glacier Bay. We had a National Park Service guide give a presentation about what we were viewing. She told us that about half of the glaciers were in retreat, and the other half were advancing. She said it had more to do with precipitation patterns then temperature.
We also were fortunate to see several calving incidents. She also, once again, explained that this was not caused by melting but rather that the ice moving over open water lost support and collapsed of its own weight. I guess she had not yet received the memo!
“She told us that about half of the glaciers were in retreat, and the other half were advancing. She said it had more to do with precipitation patterns then temperature.”
Rivers are like that, They generally flow more when its raining. :-)
“….I guess she had not yet received the memo!”
Yes, I’m surprised a Nat’l Park guide would be that broad minded. You can make certain people very very angry and defensive talking like that
You are lucky, you had a real person. we were on a Princess ship. Yes we heard about global warming, but I could not get to the speaker.
Well it was fun while it lasted. They called me out to do a run to the Nissan Plant in Smyrna, TN (about 20 mi ESE of Nashville off I-24). Seven hundred mile round trip with stops at three locations in the Nissan complex. So I’ve been up since 22:00 yesterday. After 15 hours of work I stopped at the store to pick up a few things on the way home. While doing that my wonder girl made something for me to eat since I hadn’t eaten in over 20 hours. According to dispatch the probability is high I’ll be called pretty early tomorrow. Only one guarantee driver in the cue ahead of me. All the others went out since I departed this morning. It looks like it’s going to be one of those weeks. Hell on Wheels. Best I can hope for are that my runs are solo and not teaming. So it’s off to bed and I know I won’t have any problem going to sleep since I only got 2 1/2 hours in last night before the called and woke me up.
Get back safe. Check in when you can
Went out again This morning. Picked up new cans at Ball Corp in Findlay, OH and will deliver them to Bush’ s Beans in Dandridge, TN at 06:00 tomorrow. In a rest area on I-40 taking my break right now.
After delivery I head for Lewisburg, TN for a pickup at 20:00 that night. One more break then head for the barn.
Beautiful weather.
I saw where much of Indiana, plus most of Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin did not have any 90 degree days in July. Chicago had one. None so far in August and none likely anytime soon. We are supposed to be having dangerous warming that threatens the very existence of humanity? What a joke!
I can’t wait to share the posts from Ms Griff this morning! If there was ever any doubt that the CAGW team is nothing but a bunch of sick and selfish liars, Ms Griff put that doubt to rest today. She clearly argues against saving the millions who are starving right now, and states with no ambiguity that her goal is to save ice instead while claiming she cares about poor brown people.
Please keep arguing against saving humans Ms Griff, you are single handedly creating new skeptics daily. You make my job an absolute cake walk. LOL