Winter has arrived about 10 days early in the Arctic, and Greenland’s surface has gained 500 billion tons of ice – about 33% above normal.
Greenland Ice Sheet Surface Mass Budget: DMI
Pen Hadow tests the limits of stupidity at the BBC.
Pen Hadow sets sail for North Pole as Arctic ice melts – BBC News
Temperatures at the North Pole have dropped below freezing, and new interstitial ice will be forming soon, but that shouldn’t stop Pen Hadow from sailing there in six weeks in complete darkness, through two meter thick ice, with temperatures at -10C and ice concentration at 100%.
Ocean and Ice Services | Danmarks Meteorologiske Institut
NASA’s top experts say the Arctic is screaming and has been ice free since 2012.
Star-News – Google News Archive Search
The Argus-Press – Google News Archive Search
Nothing but cold in the forecast.
This is the biggest scam in history and government climate scientists are among the stupidest and most dishonest people on the planet. Meanwhile, the official deep state disinformation agencies continue to lie about the climate.
http://www.summitcamp.org/status/webcam/
Meanwhile, the rapidly melting Summit, Greenland icecap station is 1 F with blizzards on the way.
And as if that was not bad enough, Tony Heller’s post gets linked by Drudge and causes an immediate and rapid meltdown among the members of the global warming cult. It’s a morbid affair and we should start worrying about the possibility of social media-driven Jonestown.
TH sure does know how to dangle the hook. :-)
And they take the bait EVERY time.
According to some genius commenters at WUWT the Greenland ice cap is still losing more ice than it is gaining due to calving and melting. There is no convincing idiots of the truth.
yes, it is…
Here’s what the DMI who produced the chart included above have to say on this:
“For an ice sheet that neither grows or shrinks, there is at all points averaged over the year a balance between
•the amount of snow that falls and is compressed to ice
•the amount of snow and ice that melts or evaporates (sublimates) and
•the amount of ice that flows away due to the ice motion
The two first contributions make up the surface mass balance. For the ice sheet as a whole, there is a balance between the surface mass balance and the amount of ice that calves into the ocean as icebergs.
If climate changes, the surface mass balance may change such that it no longer matches the calving and the ice sheet can start to gain or lose mass. This is important to keep track of, since such a mass loss will lead to global sea level rise. As mentioned, satellites measuring the ice sheet mass have observed a loss of around 200 Gt/year over the last decade. ”
For Greenland the SMB does NOt match the calving and the ice sheet is losing mass.
Who died?
Bull Shit. Ice does not start moving faster as an immediate reaction to increased mass above. It takes time. There is no way that the great increase in Greenland SMB this year could have possibly translated into an increase in calving in the amount needed to counterbalance the mass gained.
“Ice does not start moving faster as an immediate reaction to increased mass above.” – RAH
According the Newton’s laws of motion it does.
dv = (F/m)dt. There is no delay.
Most people learn this in high school. Did you make it through grades 1 through 8?
I’m guessing the “F” in your equation represents friction?
Apply that formula to your food intake and watch the poo immediately come out. There is a delay, this is not the formula would apply to the model at hand. I have had all the maths and the physics and actually apply the stuff in the real world while you find laws that are applicable to solid bodies in motion.
Sure … assuming there is no friction. What kind of a fool would assume that something starts to move instantly as you apply force when there is friction to be overcome. If you lean against your house, does it start to move?
You may have learned grade 8 science. But not much more.
Ice behavior under a load is viscoelastic. And the calculations involved along with the margin of error would make it impossible to predict their motion based on newtons laws even if you tried to take in all the other variable factors. All you can do is take empirical measurements and make predictions based on them.
Newton’s laws are accurate to totally simulate only perfect bodies. The F available to make the ice move is not equal to the total added force of accumulated ice, because it requires force to deform the ice and time for that deformation to happen.
You knew exactly what I meant. Ice flows slowly. The gain in mass at a summit will not immediately increase the mass being calved below. It takes time for the mass of new ice above to accelerate the advance of the ice below. It takes time for the effects to show up at the ablation zone and for the calving to increase.
IF you were correct in the application of Newtons 1st law of motion then when any mass were added to the accumulation zone the face at the ablation zone would immediately advance proportional to the mass added and a glacier that terminates in unfrozen sea could not possibly gain mass ever, all other things being equal.
To imply that increased mass in the accumulation zone of a glacier translates into an instant acceleration of the ice flow and thus instant calving at the ablation zone at the bottom is dishonest and denies the reality that glaciers can gain mass beyond equal librium. If the rate of accumulation was instantly matched by the rate of ablation or calving then the mass of the ice sheet would never gain mass above equal Librium and only possibly lose it to melting or calving. But they do gain mass. The only time a glacier advances more or less instantly in is in the case of a glacial quake.
Any math is only as good as the limitation of knowledge of the person applying it.
Vendicar Decarian Newton 2nd law.
RAH,
We are outmatched here.
Vending Cart de Carrion knows his formula and how to apply it. He should make a YouTube demonstration of pouring a bucket of water into the Missouri in Cannon Ball, ND and showing the immediate reaction in New Orleans. He’d better notify the authorities there, though.
He’s a scientist and they know how to do these things. He can calculate it for you, too.
Vendicar, you made a complete fool of yourself by claiming, “There is no delay.”
Yes there is a delay since the total ice mass is simply too big to respond immediately.
Here the rest of the quote RAH wrote,you never addressed:
“There is no way that the great increase in Greenland SMB this year could have possibly translated into an increase in calving in the amount needed to counterbalance the mass gained.”
Gee I wonder why, you dishonest jerk!
Well vendicar- i missed a lot of school hours,
but according to Newtons Law there is a delay(in any object which starts to move/accelerate)
it is called inertia.
It does not make a difference but,well you know-school etc.
The mass above does not always accelerate the movement.
It depends on wether it can move(being blocked by rocks,mountains other ice structures)
The increase in movement is barely significant.
(when a car B weighs 50% more than car A it will not accelerate 50% faster downhill then car A and it will not reach 50% more speed)
The AGW cult make it look like all of a sudden the mass starts to move much faster
then before((the same trick they use with global warming))
Applying Vendicar Decarian’s law of glacial motion, just think how much snow must have instantly fallen at the summit to cause this massive calving event at the Ilulissat Glacier in Western Greenland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC3VTgIPoGU
I think we can all thank Ventingfart for volunteering to illustrate the Dunning–Kruger effect. It is good that some unfortunate folks are willing to act as a warning to the rest of us. Every village needs its idiot
To help Vendicar and other low thinking warmists:
Dunning–Kruger effect
“In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
A lot of actual scientists tore apart Griff’s feeble comments at WUWT. She doesn’t seem to notice that many are laughing at her ignorance and stupidity there.
Here Vendichead again
desperation from the Arctic alarmists when you have to send in a pee shooter.
!
Current Greenland ice area is above what it has been for most the last 8000 years.
The only time it has been higher was duribng the LIA.
Unfortunately that RECOVERY from the COLDEST period in 10,000 years seems to have stalled, and all indication are that the global temperatures will start to drop again over the next decades or so. That drop in temperatures is what we should all really be concerned about, not a highly beneficial slight warming.
“I’m guessing the “F” in your equation represents friction?”
In Vendichead’s case.. it means FARCE.
You need to put your comment into language that alarmists working for the MSM can understand.
Griff,
Even assuming the estimated 200GT loss of ice per year over the last decade;
Even ignoring that this year’s surface mass budget average is 200GT over the 1981-2010 average;
The estimated current volume of the Greenland Ice Sheet is 2,850,000 cubic km (km3). a km3 of ice = 1 GT.
If the entire Greenland ice sheet were to melt, this would cause an estimated rise in sea level of 7.2 m.
2,850,000 km3 divided by 200 km3/yr = 14,250 years.
That’s 14,250 years for the whole of the Greenland ice cap to melt.
That works out to a total sea level rise of 7.2m divided 14,250 for 0.0005 meters per year, or a .5 mm per year or 50 mm ( 2 inches) per century.
So why are you so pessimistic if you’re quoting such an optimistic number?
Greenland total ice mass since 1900.
” a km3 of ice = 1 GT. ”
A bit less, actually, which is why my chart is around 2.6 x 10¹₅ tonnes
That 200GT/year was based on erroneous GRACE data.
Its a standard statement than has zero science backing it up.
ie ITS A FABRICATION.
“For Greenland the SMB does NOt match the calving and the ice sheet is losing mass.”
RUBBISH
You have ZERO data showing calving extent.
Grace data is a nonsense, because it measures gravity of a known volcanic region.
So…Griff…let me get this straight.
If a glacier ‘retreats’ in some mountainous region in the temperate zone that’s caused by Global Warming, right?
But if a glacier ‘advances’ in say…the Arctic, that’s caused by Global Warming too?
Wow.
Reading between the lines, what Griff just pointed out is the interesting fact that temperature doesn’t have much to do with the ice balance in Greenland.
Yoo Hoo Griff.
Where are you?
Griffiepoo is off milking the unicorns and gathering the fairy dust which will power the arctic explorers in their conquest of the frozen north.
Tony scores another direct hit on the Grifftard …. not sure if this one got him between the eyes or was a bulls eye on the butt but Griff is a hurting puppy now and refuses to look at that DMI chart showing the arctic temps falling fast … he knows everything is still melting at the north pole, his mind is made up & Tony is just confusing him with facts and data.
Ms Griff knows she can make it go away. If she could just remember the formula …
Stewart, it isn’t ‘winter’ up there and there is about another month till the point where we see the low point of sea ice extent for the year.
Extent is already below 2016 values.
https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent
https://seaice.uni-bremen.de/data/amsr2/today/Arctic_AMSR2_visual.png
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-ice-graph/
How many died?
Griff, why even bother? You’re dealing with the alt-right who will do ANYTHING to ALARM us into the HYSTERICAL thinking that if we convert to sustainable energy and reduce carbon emissions, the global economy will collapse due to the petrololeum industry collapsing. Too hysterical for words. Fortunately, these idiots are in the minority and know NOTHING about science.
BTW China is KILLING us in development of the sustainable energy market.
Ms Mistroh, please stop shouting and explain how China is killing us there. Also, describe when and how the petroleum industry collapse will happen.
The people who put billions into the development of U.S. sources are anxious to hear your investment advice.
as usual Griff ignored the last ten years,that show the decline has stopped as many here keep pointing out,here is one example Griff ignores:
http://www.natice.noaa.gov/ims/images/sea_ice_only_small.jpg
Taken from this website
http://www.natice.noaa.gov/ims/
Ever notice that those who scream “SCIENCE” the loudest, never offer any? Ms Stroh is another shining example of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
WAY higher than for all the last 10,000 years apart from the LIA, isn’t it griff.
Why do you continually DENY this fact?
Griff u strip bare balls and then sit on the beach here and enjoy the summer http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/camera
Notice the new ice that froze up overnight = the flat smooth area just to the lower center left and the wave rippled open water above the new ice …. new ice forming means very little melting to a sane person who lives in the north ;-) and new ice means temps below freezing as u can see on obuoy’s thermometer readings which are getting erratic in the overnight leading me to think the battery is finally failing on 14.
Stewart, your observation doesn’t agree with Ms Griff’s hypothesis and must be discarded. The arctic is hot as hell. She read it in the papers.
Also, Pen Hadow and his Arctic Missionaries have embarked on a sun-soaked pleasure cruise through the blue waters. Expect frolicking and swimsuit competitions on board of their two yachts. And just wait till his Missionaries hit the beaches …
I’m sure the ship stewards are wearing shorts and sandals as they serve ice cold beverages to the passengers coated in spf 50 with zinc oxide on their noses watching polar bears drown in the vast expanses of open Arctic ocean.
Colorado …. she puts a whole different spin on snow balling :-)
Never have been much of one for sex on the beach let alone sex on a glacier. But I’m a sucker for blond hair with dark eyebrows with a great figure.
Not quite “bare balls” Stewart, but you might enjoy this?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXx1yjgjpXK/
Did you by any chance see all the smoke over O-Buoy 14 yesterday?
Not quite eight million Genocide Jim, but you will enjoy this…
Smoke or fog Jim? Me thinks fog.
Smoke Stewart:
http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/07/the-northwest-passage-in-2017/#comment-222890
Peat burns..
WOW.
So what.!!!
What is your PUTRID agenda this time Jimbo ?
I see someone is spitting on graves again. Why do leftists hate poor brown people?
Andy – You appear to be geographically challenged?
The “peat fire” I assume you are referring to is in South West Greenland.
You appear to be mentally challenged.
And there is nothing anyone can do about it,
… because you LIKE being that way.
She has no time to post-
the Griff is desperately searching for the summer which went missing during in England during this summer,
hoping that at least one day reaches 25+ degrees so that she does not feel like a complete idiot when running around and warning about global warming.
Seems the AGW business is extremely tiresome and frustrating when you are not on the official global warming scientist payrole.
Running around and telling freezing people how we all ginna die on a hell-like hot earth((i really love all the religious analogies the AGW cult
is missusing to make people feel guilty and anxious))
is really a tough tough thing.
She needn’t worry. The Russians are getting some of the warmth right now and they need it since they have had little summer weather this year. Soon enough the air masses will flip flop and England will once again be warmer than average for a time.
Same thing happening here in Central Indiana. We’ve been much cooler than average for several weeks but that is about to change and the people out west will cool off as we get warmer than average temperatures for a time.
It’s weather. But alarmists are too ignorant to understand that.
One of our most mild summers here in Chicago too. Haven’t had any sustained periods of 90’s and occasional 100’s in a decade or two.
Chicken-little griff, was wetting its bed when the jet stream anomaly was causing freezing temperature and DEATHS in Russia in the middle of last winter.
Even when fronted with the fact, just kept piddling about Arctic sea ice. Totally disgusting anti-human behaviour.
FYI – Here in central Maine, USA, we have already had morning temps in the 40’s F. This morning it was 47 F in Norridgewock. Furthermore, this is the summer that wasn’t and many maples are already starting to change color. This doesn’t look like global warming to me.
Global warming claims=Bullshit.
No need to drag Bullshit down to the level of Globull Warming.
Yes, the UK is seeing a cold summer due to the position of the jet stream.
I wonder what could possibly influence position of the jet stream?
She knows who did it. Get him, get him!
The sun. Do you have a model for predicting that also?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/19/arctic-ice-melt-already-affecting-weather-patterns-where-you-live-right-now
The Guardian is only good as a liner for bird cages, and starting fires. The National Inquirer is a more accurate source of information. But for alarmists like Griff, it’s holy scripture.
Ms Griff gets her science from the Gaurdian, and her morals from Stalin.
I’m sure there’s no coincidence at all. After all, the sun has nothing to do with climate.
http://www.newsweek.com/solar-minimum-sun-weird-behaviour-631276
“Concluding, the team say it appears there are periods where activity on the sun is “altered significantly,” and that this unusual behavior could be a “radical transition suggested by data on other stars,” indicating “a change in cycle behavior.””
Oh my! The sun’s behavior is not static (as suggested in every climate model) ?
Right on cue; every single issue that throws a spanner in the AGW works is answered by simply visiting the Guardian!
Lousy summer? No problem! Blame a shifted jet stream and – ta-da! – put that down to global warming!
And for her next trick Griff will make this official climate data disappear…
It is just a convenient source of plain English articles linking to actual science. The science that apparently goes away if you call someone referencing it names.
Linking to actual science? LOL
At its most basic, climate science still has not refuted Natural Variability. So no, the Guardian propaganda is just that, doomer porn.
Why do you hate poor brown people Ms Griff?
The science that shows that the ARctic sea ice is above what it has been for 90-95% of the last 10,000 years?
The science that shows that the only time its been higher was during the LIA?
The science you have to totally ignore because it would remove all necessity for you arctic sea ice bed-wetting???
Real Science from real scientists like Dr. David Viner and internationally recognized expert on climate change?
Again, Griff, when you engage the ignorant, they will work HARD to bring YOU down. Why deal with hysterical alt-right know-nothings who care more about the petroleum and coal industries than our home planet?
Because for all their faults they are human beings also…
One or two of them tell good jokes…
Tony cares about the environment and takes some brilliant nature photographs
and the truth will always win, in the end.
LOL Mistorh is soooooo typical of the types that CW runs into all the time I suspect.
Neither YOU are Griff made any actual counterpoint to Tony’s blog post.
You are pathetic.
Yes Ms Griff, we are human beings, just like the poor brown people whom you hate.
Seems we have yet another ignorant socialist thumb-sucker.
The Arctic sea ice is currently far above the long term average. It is only a small amount down from the extreme highs of the LIA.
Get some knowledge and perspective, and you won’t need to keep sucking your thumb as a security blanket.
Normal fluctuations, for one.
Right! Like the jetstream “never” moves on it’s own. How could a wobbly, not solid, spheroidal, 70% covered in water, spinning at 1000mph +, hurtling through space, constantly bombarded with cosmic rays and the suns energy etc… not be totally controlled by a trace magic gas?
It’s not its quantity but the dark quality that matters …
Your SUV GRIFF.
“I wonder what could possibly influence position of the jet stream?”
Same thing that cause the 1977 jet stream wobble
And the one before that, and the one before that.
Certainly NOT CO2. Only thing it does is promote plant growth.
One thing that seems to do it is solar activity levels. The jet stream starts getting loopy when solar activity declines.
Heralding a drop in Arctic temperature.. like in 1979.
Griff is desperately searching for the summer which went missing during in England during this summer,
Historic Heat Wave Sweeps Asia, the Middle East and Europe
The last week of May 2017 and first week of June brought one the most extraordinary heatwaves in world history to Asia, the Middle East and Europe. The mercury shot up to an astonishing 53.5°C (128.3°F) at Turbat, Pakistan on May 28, making it Earth’s hottest temperature ever recorded in the month of May—and one of Earth’s top-five hottest reliably-measured temperatures on record, for any month. Both Pakistan and Oman tied their all-time national heat records for any month during the heat wave, and all-time national heat records for the month of May were set in Iran, Norway and Austria. International weather records expert Maximiliano Herrera details the great heat wave in this guest post.
https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/historic-heat-wave-sweeps-asia-middle-east-and-europe
Thanks for the weather report! Or did you believe that was climate?
Historical?? lol
And then you come up with Oman and Pakistan.
Come on dude.
Pakistan is barely 7 decades old
and weather stations ,if they exist ,are few.
In Oman they barely knew what thermoters are a hundred years ago.
These countries have barely reliable datas for the past few decades,
therefore you will find in such countries always new records somewhere as only very few records exist.
((just like women-pole jumping/pole vault a few years ago.
it was new,therefore many records had been set
while at the same time men-pole jumping was just improved once in the past 25 years)
You have heat in regions((with very little reliable data in the past years))
and then you have cold in othrr regions at the same time=weather.
Nothing new to see here:Weather and business as usual.
Strange somehow you forgott to mention the extreme cold for months in east southern Europe.
Why?
Because noone was crying doom&gloom when it happened -it was either ignored or simply treated as unspectacular news(which it was),while any heatwave is sign for armageddon.
The same with all the unusual Snowfall in the middle+near east this winter/spring and even
snowfalls in south americas warm region.
This also was weather.Nothing more-
btw,prepare for many new records in regions where weather stations barely exist and just for few decades as this is the normal when few data exists.
(and never ask yourself why noone cries when new cold records are set)
I think you’ll find records being broken at sites that have only been open this century. I checked one that was only built because of oil. Newspaper articles mention the heat in WWII that was setting off the heat badges of British soldiers every day. No mention of recorded temperatures though.
I wonder if the weather station is at the new airport. ;-)
Come on Ven-dic-hed, show us where the temperature was measured.
Try mentioning the Greenland Ice Core studies that showed that both the Minoan and Roman Warming Periods were warmer than now and watch their heads explode.
Better yet, in a study of temperatures from 2000 to 2017 it was found that 311,000 people died from extreme heat. However, during the same period 5.4 million people died from extreme cold; AGW people seem to miss the significance of those numbers completely. Lol
https://vimeo.com/14366077
RE limits of stupidity at the BBC … Einstein said it best “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former”.
It’s not clear if Einstein actually said this. First quoted by Frederick S Perls in 1947 and attributed to “a great astronomer”. He never made the Einstein claim until 1969, 14 years after Einstein’s death so there was nobody to dispute it. He also altered the quote over time, adding the last part “not sure about the former”.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/04/universe-einstein/
Robert Heinlein said “never underestimate the extent of human stupidity.”
No matter who said it… It is a great comment.
Al Gore would say well ice is warming and change. The more the change the more money he makes. Hey, here is is a secret, wether changes and man can do nothing about it.
“wether changes and man can do nothing about it.” – Dan Moron
Still can’t figure out the difference between weather and climate, can you Dan?
Take it easy on Dan. Not everyone finds the 4th grade as easy as you did.
Still can’t figure out the difference between weather and climate, can you Dan?
And niether can most “climate experts”, they have been confusing weather with climate for decades now.
You certainly can’t . You gullibly swallow every little bit that your master, Big Al throughs you.
I bet you even attended one of his “training courses” , which left you even more ignorant than before you started.
Dan, you must listen to the experts like Vending Cart de Carrion. Bad weather and anything in the atmosphere you don’t like is climate. Don’t you read the papers or watch evening news? All the good things are weather. Manmade global warming causes floods and droughts, heat waves and arctic blasts, it shrinks horses, turns nice young men into thugs and it drives couples to murder-suicide pacts. At times it causes an extremely moderate weather, but some other times it makes our wives really cranky. Al Gore knows all about that. That’s why he is making these movies and that’s what Bill Nye and Vending Cart are trying to beat into your thick skull.
Bill Nye, the moron.
Naah, the complete darkness comes later.
fear mongering trumps facts………………
Brilliant photo!
… socially just and artistic!
Brilliant dog.
He is laughing at your AGW nonsense
That’s how every dog looks like after biting its first hippie.
He’s gone. Egg-sucking stoner …
arn, too funny
Thanks, vast improvement to my crappy day :)
It is not a photo.
It is a mirror.
The left has always eaten it’s own, this Global Warming lunacy is the ultimate leftist agenda……………..to eat it’s own in entirety, the whole damned Planet!
Well, what exactly is the right’s “agenda”? What do YOU want to see done about global warming policy?
“Done” about global warming? Well maybe we could spray soot on the polar ice caps so they could absorb the sun’s rays?
No wait – that was for global cooling. Not sure then. Maybe spray paint everything white?
Mistroh,
I see we have a new troll who post a lot of words, but without substance.
Why can’t you address what Tony posted?
In a word “NO”.
Mistroh…
“What do want to see done…??”
Nothing… you airhead.
Man is not causing global warming.
Climate change is natural.
Caused by … the Sun; Milankovitch cycles; Plate tectonics; etc.
What do YOU want to see done about global warming policy?
Gaia has a policy? Let’s hope she favors interglacials, and ignores the religious doomers who think she is suicidal.
“What do YOU want to see done about global warming policy?”
ROFLMAO
What to do about totally NATURAL and highly BENEFICIAL warming out of the coldest period in 10,000 years.
HOPE TO HECK it doesn’t reverse. !!!
What is the perfect level of atmospheric CO2 Mistroh?
“What do YOU want to see done about global warming policy?”
We want to see it tossed in the junk-heap where it came from and where it belongs !
And the whole of the anti-society, anti-progress, anti-CO2, socialist totalitarian AGENDA with it.
Early June of this year. Thick ice off Canadian coast. Very little coverage in the news.
https://polarbearscience.com/2017/06/12/heavy-ice-off-east-coast-2017-caused-by-winds-cold-temperatures-and-icebergs/
And now?
Now it’s time for Ms Griff’s genocide machine to roll on over another pile of poor brown people’s bodies again today.
Its recovered back towards normal for a very short time.
Unfortunately , they will be frozen in again pretty soon.
You seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that it is summer up there at the moment (nearly finished) and sea ice should be melting.
Perhaps that is because of the lack of summer in the UK this year??
But you , of course, want the seasons to go back to the LIA , don’t you griff. That way you can spent ALL of your time in your fossil fuelled little ghetto basement, wetting your bed constantly about some other problem.
(Oh wait.. if you and your moronic CO2-HATERS have their way, there will be no fossil fuel heating…won’t that be wonderful on those cold windless nights….. OOPS !)
The real problem is rooted in the education system. It is totally LIBERAL, but they refuse to see it.
From day 1 in any school around the globe, the mantra has been MANMADE GLOBAL WARMING. It is now too late there are too many IGNORANT, lead to water yout’s, and limp wristed hand wringing adults.
People can’t understand the earth evolves as it revolves. Man is just a speck of dust in the realm of the universe.
What will Al-Buffoon say? Time for another failure-movie.
Is the Griff actually a girl?
Seriously, you guys should redirect some of your
fire-power on the venerable Seth Borenstein.
He is the evil genius behind much of the GW
nonsense that makes it onto the front page of
your hometown newspaper. He is head
climate-change guru at the AP.
Perhaps I’m also a black, liberal, muslim communist?
It matters not… what does matter is the observed science and calling people names will not get you off the hook when the physical evidence shows you are wrong.
It is still melting up there: the extent is lower than last year at this date.
It’s not science when the data is manipulated to say something other than what it really is. So all that “evidence” as you call it is not really evidence at all, it is fraud and propaganda. You just have not developed a BS meter to detect it like the rest of us have.
Multiple research agencies from different countries observe and report on arctic sea ice -Germany, Japan, Denmark, US.
Their different observations – which you can check by looking at output from several online satellite photo websites – all show sea ice extent declining and this year’s to be lower for this date than 2016.
That’s hard, observed, cross checked science.
why do you not believe in it?
Griff,
Why can’t you accept this from the NOAA?
http://www.natice.noaa.gov/ims/images/sea_ice_only_small.jpg
Perhaps because both the Roman and Minoan Warming Periods were hotter than today, yet archeologists have failed to find the remains of their coal burning power plants and millions of automobiles. Here’s a free clue: where does the heat originate? Has that source historically varied in output? If it goes out, will AGW keep earth from mimicing Pluto?
You’re probably too young to remember when “real” scientists said tobacco was not only harmless, but good for you. Or that x-ray machines were “safe” enough to use to determine shoe size in shoe stores.
I know, google “scientific theories that turned out to be wrong”; some after hundreds of years.
Figure it out.
EVIDENCE griff.. why can’t YOU accept it.
You are a lying chicken-little bed-wetter is the only reason I can think of.
And they show a HUGE amount of sea ice up there.. WAY MORE than for most of the last 10,000 years, slightly down from the extreme of the late 1970’s.
Wouldn’t you agree , griff.
Or is it mandatory for you to IGNORE THE FACTS, so you can continue to mimic chicken-little.
Buy a meltimeter.
They’re going cheap (or cheep, cheep)
In that case, Griff, when are you going to take me up on my bet? Or are you like a Hollywood cowboy who only wears fake guns?
It is “normal” for loony leftists to be self loathing, so Ms Griff could certainly be black and yet still hate poor brown people.
“Perhaps I’m also a black, liberal, muslim communist?”
Ms Griff, judging from your contributions on this blog you suffer from all known Progressive mental disorders but you are definitely no liberal. Your sociopathic prescriptions are among the most illiberal I know.
You are just a typical genocidal totalitarian out to fix the world for good.
Islam and Communism do have something in common in their effects on those that must live under them. Neither has anything to do with liberalism. And black. I don’t give a damn what color you are. Ignorance comes in all colors.
Correct, I am a radical liberal. I believe in individual rights.
Black,Liberal,Muslim,Communist?!
Well you described just Obama
(from my muslims uncle(studied agricultural something) point of view:(and he for sure is no conspiracy theorist)
I asked him wether he thinks Obama is muslim and he laughed
and said.
“Barack is Muslim name(also jewish)
Hussein is a muslim name.
How the hell can he be a christian?
If he were a christian he would have a christian name”
You IGNORE the evidence griff, so you can have an excuse for your chicken-little bed-wetting
Evidence says the Arctic sea ice level is HIGHER than it has been for 90-95% of the last 10,000 years, only just a tiny amount down from the extremes of the LIA and late 1970’s
Why do you DENY the evidence, griff. What putrid little agenda are you trying to push ??
This is also why she always dodges the questions of what is the ideal? What is the level the Arctic ice supposed to recover to for our climate to be ideal? What is are the ideal sea ice extents, areas, and volumes? What are the perfect temperatures for the equator, temperate zones, and Frigid zones?
Every movement needs to have stated ultimate objectives for their end result but alarmists buy into the CO2 claims without asking the most basic of questions of what are the ideal climate temperatures and why?
The desired end result has nothing to do with climate, and this is why they do not have an answer to your question, RAH.
Well I want them to tell me. I want to know what the ideal climate would be for each and every degree of latitude and longitude and each and every type of geological facie.
Abstract
Frank Mackie Glacier repeatedly advanced across the Bowser River valley in northwestern British Columbia to impound Tide Lake during the Holocene. The most recent infilling of Tide Lake was associated with a late Little Ice Age glacier advance and ended around 1930 when the lake catastrophically drained. Over the last century Frank Mackie Glacier has retreated and down wasted to reveal multiple glaciogenic sedimentary units within the proximal faces of prominent lateral moraines. The units are separated by buried in-situ tree stumps and laterally contiguous wood mats deposited on paleosols. Dendroglaciological and radiocarbon dating of these wood remains show that Frank Mackie Glacier expanded into standing forests at 3710–3300, 2700–2200, 1700–1290, 900–500, and 250–100 cal. years BP. These advances coincide closely in time with the previously established Tide Lake glacier dam chronology and with the Holocene history of other glaciers in the Bowser River watershed. The findings emphasize the likelihood that most glaciers within northwestern British Columbia underwent substantial size and mass balance changes over the last 4000 years, and often spent hundreds of years in advanced positions before retreating.
http://cjes.geoscienceworld.org/content/54/1/76
Accepted August 26, 2016.
I’m certain this isn’t limited to British Columbia alone.
Grif it matters not one little bit that you are black, communist etc etc …. WHAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU ARE NUTTIER THAN RAT SHIT IN A PEANUT FACTORY!!
PS:
Three nights ago (August 14) a large (possibly 200 birds) of honking Canada geese flew over my residence in southwest Wisconsin.
They were headed south on the Mississippi flyway and may harbinger an early fall.
Time will tell.
IPCC Third Assessment Report
Chapter 14
Section 14.2.2.2
Last paragraph:
“In sum, a strategy must recognize what is possible. In climate research and modelling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”
This information was not included in the Summary Report for Policymakers given to the press and public.
If the climate is indeed a coupled non-linear chaotic system (who can doubt the IPCC) then there is no rational or scientific basis to make a definitive statement about a future state of the climate.
At this point the coupled non-linear chaotic nature of the climate makes scientific observations academically interesting but individually they have no relevance in predicting the future state of the climate. The climate is a system which means the relationships among these observations are what is important not the observations themselves.
All the public discourse regarding the future state of the climate has been based on the false premise that the current climate models are predicting the future state of the climate when in fact the models are merely projecting these states.
Predictions are the purview of science. Model projections can only agree with predictions when the models duplicate the real world.
To base public policy on an unknowable state of a system defies common sense. However, too much money and political power is at stake for the Central Planners to do otherwise.
I would argue that the Climate Model True Believers are the ones taking an unscientific approach to the subject.
In January 1961 President Eisenhower in his Farewell Address identified the situation in which we find ourselves today:
“Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system — ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.”
Other relevant publications from Eric Hoffer are: “The True Believer” and “The Temper of Our Times”
From “The Temper of Our Times”: “Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business and eventually degenerates into a racket.”
One of the best things Trump has done since Jan 20 is pull out of the scam Paris Climate Accords! 140 nations may have signed on, but they just want our $$$$
162, I think.
Its just the US and N Korea not signed up (and Costa Rica, who didn’t think it went far enough)
Yes, we in the US value human life over leftist ideology.
Why do you hate poor brown people and Griff?
So we managed to get someone in the White House who isn’t cowed by virtue signalling?
It’s very much like the Solomon Asch conformity experiment. Everyone else is a stooge paid to say that AGW is the greatest threat in the history of humankind. But Trump is one of those rare subjects who decided his perceptions were more trustworthy than the reports he was getting from everyone else. (And that was with 162 stooges! That may be a record for resisting the pressure to conform.)
The ones that say it’ll be 5 degrees warmer in 20 years are the same ones that can’t tell you if it will rain Saturday.
Does anyone understand the concept that some of us see the data, then we see that many top shelf researchers and orgs get busted for lying, lying by omission, producing bad data, failed solar companies subsidized with our tax money, etc. Then we see how lucrative this area of research has become and we think hmmm, I don’t trust these people enough to be stoked about their funding, grants, subsidies etc. and
The info they are peddling.
So pardon me and I assume others who aren’t committing to this. If that angers you blame the lack of oversight and the scumbags who are wrecking credibility.
They can wail and grind their teeth and scream all they want but the fact is what was predicted to happen with both Arctic sea ice and the Greenland ice sheet has not happened and is not happening and in fact the exact opposite is what we have seen this year.
The Arctic Canary is happily singing ever louder in it’s frozen coal mine and it’s driving them nuts!
So many Canaries still singing away despite the prediction of their demise and so little time.
http://climatechangepredictions.org/categories/canary_in_the_coal_mine
Lower extent than 2016?
Lower volume than 2016?
Thinner ice than 2016?
and still weeks to go before the end of the melt season…
Exactly what kind of ‘recovery’ has taken place?
exactly what change away from continued decline has taken place?
Bwahahahahahaha!!!, now Griff is reduced to a single year,getting desperate I see.
2107 is HIGHER than 2007,2012,2015 and so on.
You are a miserable little warmist troll.
We’ve heard the story before. Round and round she goes …
It isn’t.
It is just above 2007 and some way behind the 2012 record. below the rest
It is already lower than all the lowest extents of the 1990s
And it is perfectly natural and to be expected as we exit the coldest period of the last 10,000 years.
Why do you hate poor brown people Ms Griff?
And FAR higher than90-95% of the last 10,000 years.
You are a CLIMATE CHANGE DENIER, griff.
LOL! Depends on which source you look at. I’ll take DMI or JMA.
Recovery to what Griff? Exactly what should be considered normal extent and volume. And why are we talking about it at all since it was all supposed to be gone by now?
This paper posted back in 1975,before the GW scam took off states that during periods of the MWP time,there were little to NO Summer ice in the arctic:
Birds and Climatic Change
Kenneth Williamson (1975) Birds and Climatic Change, Bird Study, 22:3,143-164, DOI: 10.1080/00063657509476459
“HISTORICAL REVIEW
Between 1000 and 1300 average summer temperatures were about 1°C higher than today, with the mean annual temperature higher by perhaps 4°C in a largely ice-free Arctic. Eric the Red, a renowned world citizen of that time, has
been much maligned as the first progressive publicity man for giving Greenland a false image in order to attract settlers; but in truth, the southwest of that vast country was warmer and greener by far than at any time until the Fieldfares Turdus pilaris arrived there in the mid-1930s. The sea-temperature of the Atlantic
was higher than it has been since, and there appears to have been none or very little ice to hinder the Vikings’ communications between Iceland, Greenland,Newfoundland and Labrador (Mowat 1965). Indeed Brooks (1926) considers thatthe polar ice-cap may have disappeared entirely during the summer months, tobuild anew each winter.”
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00063657509476459
This occurred after solar insolation went negative (about 2,000 years earlier) and CO2 levels in the 260-280 range.
The world went on,the Polar bears are still here and …..Zzzz…….
Griffiepoo, do I detect desperation in your posts as the DMI graph of temps above 80 drops early & significantly below freezing? Does this picture of new ice that formed overnight (although the sun never sets this time of year) scare the crap out of you that your scary melt stories are wrong and that soon you won’t be able to tell any more scary melt stories? http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/camera
The extent is still below 2016 and still dropping.
3rd lowest extent will not be a ‘recovery’ – and especially so if you look at age and thickness of the ice
And everything is fine, nobody died. Ice melts during interglacials.
Why do you hate poor brown people Ms Griff?
Again you make clear you are a TROLL.
Here is what you keep ignoring over and over:
http://www.natice.noaa.gov/ims/images/sea_ice_only_small.jpg
Stop with your no recovery lies statements. Many here are saying it is no longer dropping,flatlining for the last ten years.
Meanwhile you lied anyway since YOUR OWN source has it in a current tie,
13.31 for both years.
https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent
No, extent is above 2016 in NSIDC.
And it is WAY above what it has been for 90-95% of the last 10,000 year
Why do you CONT+INUALLY DEN this fact
What slimy , low-life agenda are you trying to push that requires CONSTANT DENIAL of the facts ?
Do you need to DENY the facts just so you have an excuse for constant bed-wetting ?
typo fix
Why do you CONTINUALLY DENY this fact
MASSIVELY higher than it has been for 90-95% of the whole Holocene
Ignore the FACTS so you can keep whimpering and attention-seeking as you continue your mindless chicken-little bed-wetting.
“Exactly what kind of ‘recovery’ has taken place?”
A MASSIVE recovery from the EXTREME of the late 1970’s, griff.
The EVIDENCE is there for all to see, that the Arctic has been recovering from pretty much the HIGHEST levels in the last 10,000 years. Only time that was higher than the late 1970’s was the LIA.
Why are you such a spiteful, putrid person that you wish those living up there having to put up with those extremes again, when having more open Arctic region for even a couple of weeks a year would be an absolute benefit .
Travel, commerce, fishing etc , would be possible again like before the LIA. The need for ice-breakers just to survive , would not be necessary.
Why are you such a HATEFUL person, griff, that you use a highly beneficial drop back to normal sea ice levels as some sort of chicken-little, bed-wetting, yapping point ??
The climate doesn’t care what I want.
I can’t influence it, only report it.
Plenty of native communities reporting their traditional hunting, ability to move around in winter, etc is being affected by a warmer arctic.
You could stop working to starve poor brown people. But that would not suit your sick agenda.
BULLSHIT As always
Look at the massive struggles to get even a few ships through. Would be much better if that effort was not needed.
You are a LYING, child-minded LYING bed-wetting FOOL, griff.
Hey Griff – did you ever learn what summer time is? I know that living in the UK you may have never actually seen a real summer but the rest of the world actually gets beach weather in July & August … even in northern Canada.
“but the rest of the world actually gets beach weather in July & August ”
sorry Stewart, its a bit cool down here at the moment, except with a good wetsuit.
Now October – April.. you betcha !! :-)
Yeah I guess I miss spoke but on an arctic / Greenland thread I was thinking N Hemisphere and typed out rest of the world. Sometimes it is tough to remember you cellar dwellers on the bottom of the globe ;-)
Meanwhile, the Central Arctic region just refuses to melt
And the 1944 Larsen, St Roch, and the 1969 SS Manhattan route, shows no sign of being open this year.
oops… forgot the image.
Jules Verne would love this endeavor….
Not 1 Al Gore prediction over the last years has even come close to being real.
Kinda makes one wonder if algore may have had another motivation for his predictions.
Naaaaah-
Al Gore became superrich by pure coincidence(by selling co2 certificates)
Just like he is paying tens of thousands of dollars each and every year for utility costs,heated pools etc.
And now he is asking for 15 trillion dollar to fight global warming .
And i’m pretty sure his new movie “A much much more inconvinient truth-now with 2* more co2 and 500% more apocalyptic scenarios and much more death for ice bears”
will be a fatastic comedy,disguised as science.
And when you “read” between the lines of his new movie
you will find the best of propaganda .
You will find how grown ups are treated like little children
while pretending to treat the as grown ups.
You will find many ice bear mommas with children which will die a horrible death((to scare the children))
You will find out that the main message is that everyone is a Nazi who does not agree with them and is not willing to become member of the sociophantic AGW group((the same methods that are used with political correctness and hate speech))
And you will NOT find a single word about climate gate,
about data tampering,
about all the miserably failed predictions of the AGW cult
And you will find hundreds of thousands old people living near the coast watching this movie,after leaving cinema
watching at the sea – and they will still fail to realise that the sea level is the same as 50 years ago ((and that Al Gore is lying in his movie))
and that they need as much energy for heating in a single year as they used to 50 years ago,because it did not get warmer after all.
Depends- did algore predict he would be s billionaire?
Yes-he did.
Its a mathematical formula,pretty complex-
the Al Gore Rhythm.
A formula which is created out of thin air
(just like the FED’s money)
so thin,only 0.01% of the Airs substance(=Mann(&Hansen)made co2)
is enough make the entire world population tax slaves
for his benefit and the benefit of the powerfull banksters who own him.
So powerfull that they not just controle the FED or the co2 stock market in chicago,
but so powerfull that they can buy noble peace prizes
to make a controversial AGW theory( which was contradicting their very own global cooling theory )
a fact.
Some people say:impossible-noone can buy a noble peace prize you looney.
Well-how the hell was it possible for the mass murderer Kissinger to get the noble prize.
Or worse-how was it possible for a nothing who has done nothing to deserve this prize to get one.
Kissinger at least pretended to have stopped the vietnam war,
Obama on the other side had nothing and he won though there had been tens of millions of people on this planet who had deserved this prize more than him.
Average Joe cheers because the media tells him,but the noble prize commettee is a group of very smart super experts and not a bunch of dipshits-and all they got about obama was an empty piece of paper because he had nothing to show,while all the others contestants had.
Still Obama won.
The only way for Obama to win?
Someone gave the noble committee a lot money
and they gave him the prize.
Follow the MONEY!
Meteorological data has been manipulated by the left for decades, (look Australia’s BOM) admitting not logging in the low temps for decades to prove global worming is “real”. Many data collectors of temps around the globe, have been putting the thermometers next to ground level and next to hot concrete surfaces and on buildings facing south sides to show a rise in temps for decades.
If you are independent thinker, there is no doubt that there is no GLOBAL worming in your mind, on the other hand, if you listen to BBC and other global worming peddlers, you have been permanently brain washed and you are beyond repair, therefore, there is no point of arguing and trying to make you understand the real truth, the left has been indoctrinated your mind to a point of no return.
I’ve always wondered if that big, shinny thing in the sky had anything to do with the temperatures on this planet.
Uh-Oh….it must be time to “adjust” the data. This outcome does not agree with “settled science” (a new version of science invented by politicians).
Here’s a link on the position of every reporting Arctic buoy.
http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_map.html
You can look up the table the same 6 number ID’s here and click on any to see the current conditions at that location. Basically anything N of 80 deg is at 0C right now. It’s a neat resource and also shows that some older buoys are still floating around the North Atlantic or in the Gulf of Alaska.
http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_table.html
The buoy currently closest to the Pole spent Summer 2015 in the mid 70s off Banks Is in the Beaufort Sea…Last Summer 2016 around mid 80s off Longitude ~220 toward Siberia after apparently being repositioned…and is now around Latitude 87, north of Greenland (other side of Pole from last year). Click on the specific buoy 255800 for detailed data like track map and temp.
Temp plot for this buoy is below, but suggest you consult the buoy map to see WHERE temps taken before drawing conclusions. Enjoy.
Appears that all of my efforts to fight Global Warming have been effective.
By George, Ben, we’ve done it!
I say give the man a Nobel!
How did he know? He is a diviner and a seer!
Congratulations!
(*Sigh) This one’s for Griff: I understand that you are seriously concerned about the planet and “climate change” (I won’t call it “Global Warming” as that term has fallen into disfavor in some parts of the media.) For the sake of intelligent discussion, let’s postulate that climate change IS occurring (there is little argument on this point! I have two words for all of you: ICE AGE.)
The actual argument is whether MAN is causing climate change! I am open to the POSSIBILITY that it might be so BUT I have not been convinced of this due to the inability of the “Man Caused Climate Change” proponents to present irrefutable proof! I’m not asking for much but what I DO require is honesty in reporting data!!!
The “MCCC” proponents do themselves an incredible disservice by “fudging” the numbers to make their computer models (and their subsequent “doomsday” predictions) work! This is a fact. By having SOME overzealous proponents change temperature readings in the past, in order to make what was statistically “no change” into an upward trend, they have brought ALL data into question and seriously weakened your argument!
I have actually attended a talk by one of the scientists on the team that received the Nobel Prize (shared with Al Gore) and we asked him if this “Global Warming” threat was as dire as the media was making it out to be (this was over seven years ago) and he said that, yes, they believed that the evidence showed that man’s dumping of millions of tons of CO2 each year into the atmosphere WILL cause global temperatures to rise in the future, it will occur at the rate of one degree Celsius in 50 years or more. This was supposing that the global increase in CO2 emissions continued it’s dramatic rise at the same pace.
I’m not an idiot and neither are most “climate change deniers!” I don’t think that anybody believes that dumping BILLIONS of tons of ANYTHING into our atmosphere will not result in something happening over a period of time! My problem is the sensationalism about this subject! This whole idea that WE ARE DYING!! WE HAVE ONE CHANCE TO SAVE OUR PLANET!!! WE HAVE REACHED THE TIPPING POINT!!!! WE HAVE TO ACT NOW!!!!! just rubs me as too passionate but not nearly persuasive enough!
I asked the Doctor from the team why Al Gore made it sound like the world was coming to an end in the next ten years and he smiled, looked down, then looked up at me and said, “Sometimes people find that exaggerations are needed to get the populace to wake up and do something.” If the threat isn’t dire, most of the time the general populace will just go, “Meh.”
Lastly, the solutions proposed are nothing of the kind for they are not designed to be implemented on a global scale! Instead, the USA and other “first world” countries are to be hit with industry crippling regulations while other “developing” countries are allowed to continue to pollute! This then becomes a global “wealth distribution” scheme which only fuels the resistance to your arguments!
I could go on but I believe this is sufficient for a start. One thing I DO believe is that technology, derived from a robust economy, will ultimately be the solution. It can not be imposed but must be agreed to by both sides. For that, BOTH sides must start being honest with each other!
I don’t think that anybody believes that dumping BILLIONS of tons of ANYTHING into our atmosphere will not result in something happening over a period of time!
I believe the correct statement is that humanity is returning CO2 to the atmosphere, where it belongs. We need more CO2, and not less.
yep.
That’s a good account of a lot of thinking on this subject…
In reply I’d say that (unfortunately) it is the trend of our times to report almost anything a all in a sensational fashion and we just have to accept any reporting is done at ‘full volume’ these days.
Also, there is a lot to turn around if we are to reduce CO2 and thus we need to reduce as much as possible as soon as possible… another reason the reporting is a little strident.
Technology is surely the solution – there are some amazing things being done with batteries, fuel cells, computer management of grids, solar power, etc
Actually, anything short of demanding that we stop wasting money on a non-issue, and that we use those funds to save human life, is an abomination.
Why do you hate poor brown people Ms Griff?
Better thinking and a lot less lying is a better solution. When are you going to improve,Griff?
Meanwhile a new science report indicates that sea ice coverage during the 20th century is probably way too high:
“However, when we looked in detail at the available pre-satellite data, we realised that there were serious problems with the Walsh & Chapman estimates.
The main problem is that the pre-satellite data is unfortunately very limited. If a ship travelled through a particular region in a given season, then they could have reported how much ice was in that region, or whether it was ice-free. But, what do you do if there were no ships (or airplanes, buoys, etc. ) in that region?
It seems that in a lot of cases when Walsh & Chapman didn’t have measurements for a given region they effectively ended up assuming that those regions were ice-filled!
For example, in the figure below, the map on the left shows the main data source used by Walsh & Chapman for August 1952. It’s an estimate of the Arctic sea ice extent that was compiled by the Danish Meteorological Institute (DMI). On the map, the red lines indicate the ice boundaries where the DMI actually had taken measurements – in this case, mostly around Greenland and eastern Canada. The white regions on the rest of the map indicate regions where “ice supposed, but no information at hand”. In other words, the DMI was guessing that there might be ice there, but didn’t know!”
and,
“This period was in the middle of the Cold War and unfortunately there was very little data-sharing between the Soviet Union and western countries like Denmark. So, the DMI had almost no information for the Russian Arctic. However, as it happens, the Russians were making their own observations of the Russian sea ice using aerial reconnaissance, ships, buoys, etc. In the 21st century, some Russian scientists began digitizing this data and publishing it. The map on the right hand side shows the Russian observations for the exact same month (August 1952). The blue regions were ice-free, the white regions were ice-filled and the grey regions were regions they weren’t measuring.
Notice how all of the Siberian Arctic regions that the Russians could see were ice-free were assumed to be ice-filled by the DMI?
The Walsh & Chapman estimates assumed that the DMI’s guesses were accurate, but they weren’t!”
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/08/17/what-do-we-know-about-arctic-sea-ice-trends/
There at WUWT, you post this stupid claim once again,despite real scientists telling you,a lot of it is VERY LOW RESOLUTION data. No data coverage for large areas at all.
“…and this article makes no mention of post Chapman research collating all possible record sources, which is summarised in this article by the NSIDC’s Florence Fletterer
https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-piecing-together-arctic-sea-ice-history-1850”
You were just shown that Chapman, has very little data,to NONE in large areas. Resolution way too low,which means he made it up for areas of no data.
Stop with the lies and bullcrap!
“CO2 and thus we need to reduce as much as possible as soon as possible”
BULLSHIT again
Although, if we do reduce atmospheric CO2 you will be able to starve even more people, griff, you evil cretin. !
Scary times in the US now, I’m seeing more and more Americans moving to Canada.
If one of them maybe you check out my website: http://eric-smith.ca/
A lot nicer than the miserable heat and humidity in DC, that can resemble the Amazon Jungle. Plus we can have plenty of cold, wind and snow during winter here as well. Some winters mild, some downright nasty.
Calling Griff;
I asked the same question over at WUWT, maybe Griff forgot to set the alarm.
Griff:
**fossil fuel produced CO2 is isotopically different.
you just measure the proportion of CO2 with the fossil fuel isotope**
So, Griff, here is one you nor anyone else has answered?
How do you MEASURE the amount of warming caused by any CO2?
This is where the lies come in. And take note that you have been asked this question many times including at Realclimatescience. And predictably you have not replied. So I expect the same today.
In the absence of any other climate drivers and after examining the warming trend after accounting for/in excess of known natural cycles, it is reasonable to assume that the warming observed is from CO2 – there being a known physical mechanism whereby CO2 warms the atmosphere and CO2 having been shown to be increasing, the origin of the CO2 being human activity burning fossil fuel, as shown by isotopic type of CO2.
The surface temperature records and the RSS satellite records show warming global temperatures…
(checking of surface temperature data by the skeptic funded Berkley Earth confirmed it is warming and that there was no distorting UHI effect)
Observed physical effects of warming such as retreating glaciers, declining sea ice, decreasing ice cap mass, all support the temperature observations.
The how did we have well over a decade of pause (which the climate models that are the foundation of alarmist claims for the furture, failed to predict)? CO2 continued to rise all that time but temps didn’t. Thus in the proxy record increases in atmospheric CO2 follows natural warming, and in the modern record increases in temperature do not correlate with rises in temperature. That is unless you rely on altered data and the miserably inadequate and doctored global surface temperature data.
BS Ms Griff!
Abstract
A brief survey of the literature concerning volcanogenic carbon dioxide emission finds that estimates of subaerial emission totals fail to account for the diversity of volcanic emissions and are unprepared for individual outliers that dominate known volcanic emissions. Deepening the apparent mystery of total volcanogenic CO2 emission, there is no magic fingerprint with which to identify industrially produced CO2 as volcanic CO2 is isotopically identical. Molar ratios of O2 consumed to CO2 produced are, moreover, of little use due to the abundance of processes (eg. weathering, corrosion, etc) other than volcanic CO2 emission and fossil fuel consumption that are, to date, unquantified. Furthermore, the discovery of a surprising number of submarine volcanoes highlights the underestimation of global volcanism and provides a loose basis for an estimate that may partly explain ocean acidification and rising atmospheric carbon dioxide levels observed last century, as well as shedding much needed light on intensified polar spring melts. Based on this brief literature survey, we may conclude that volcanic CO2 emissions are much higher than previously estimated, and as volcanic CO2 is isotopically identical to industrially emitted CO2, we cannot glibly assume that the increase of atmospheric CO2 is exclusively anthropogenic.
And even without added CO2, we would still expect a rebound from the LIA. Natural Varisbility has never been disproven.
Why do you lie, and hate poor brown people.
AS I said, Griff, You will not answer the questions and you did not.
Temperatures cycle up and down, we know that.
So answer my questions, especially the 2 deg C critical value.
Waiting…………..
” skeptic funded Berkley Earth ”
ROFLMAO.
RUBBISH.. That is the most base LIE you have ever come up with
It is funded exclusively by left-wing socialist groups. and “anonymous” which is probably a Soros or Steyer group.
You are an OUT and OUT LIAR, griff.
“In the absence of any other climate drivers ”
ROFLMAO..
The TOTAL IGNORANCE of griff, again exposed.
CO2 is NOT a climate driver of any sort.
There is NO CO2 signature in the whole of the satellite data record. All warming has come form EL Nino events and ocean oscillations. Solar effect from the Grand Solar Maximum of the latter half of last century.
Find me one paper that shows empirically that CO2 causes warming in a gravity based convective atmosphere.
The ONLY way you can maintain you AGW bed-wetting is by remaining WILFULLY IGNORANT.
New study on pre-satellite era Arctic hydrology and specifically sea ice extent using multiple data sets. Available for a limited time before it goes behind a pay wall. I have saved it.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02626667.2017.1324974
Abstract:
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Original Articles
Re-calibration of Arctic sea ice extent datasets using Arctic surface air temperature records
Ronan Connolly , Michael Connolly & Willie Soon
Pages 1317-1340 | Received 09 Oct 2016, Accepted 13 Jan 2017, Accepted author version posted online: 29 Apr 2017, Published online: 22 May 2017
Download citation http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/02626667.2017.1324974
In this article
ABSTRACT
1 Introduction
2 Arctic region definitions
3 Data and methods
4 Regional Arctic analyses
5 Arctic sea ice extent trends (1901–2015)
6 Conclusions
Supplemental material
References
Full Article Figures & data References Supplemental Citations Metrics Reprints & Permissions PDF
Abstract
A new seasonal and annual dataset describing Arctic sea ice extents for 1901–2015 was constructed by individually re-calibrating sea ice data sources from the three Arctic regions (North American, Nordic and Siberian) using the corresponding surface air temperature trends for the pre-satellite era (1901–1978), so that the strong relationship between seasonal sea ice extent and surface air temperature observed for the satellite era (1979-present) also applies to the pre-satellite era. According to this new dataset, the recent period of Arctic sea ice retreat since the 1970s followed a period of sea ice growth after the mid-1940s, which in turn followed a period of sea ice retreat after the 1910s. Arctic sea ice is a key component of the Arctic hydrological cycle, through both its freshwater storage role and its influence on oceanic and atmospheric circulation. Therefore, these new insights have significance for our understanding of Arctic hydrology.
EDITOR D. Koutsoyiannis
ASSOCIATE EDITOR not assigned
Hmmm – “Our reconstructions agree with previous studies that have noted a general decrease in Arctic sea ice extent (for all four seasons) since the start of the satellite era (1979).”
Seems reasonable?
Cherry pick what statement from the whole paper you like Jim even if it has that devil Willie Soon as one of the authors. I don’t care. It’s part of your modus operandi and everybody with a few functioning brain cells knows it.
That might be meaningful if the Earth was only 40 years old. I guess Genocide Jim is a Young Earther.
So what.. Why are you maintaining you WILFUL IGNORANCE that the Arctic sea ice levels are really only a small amount lower than their peak levels of the last 10,000 years.
FACTS are irrelevant to you aren’t they Jimbo, so long as you can push your slimy, LYING agenda by ignoring them.
You really are a LYING P.O.S. !!
Yep, we all know that the late 1970’s was a short period of EXTREME Arctic sea ice, only exceeded slightly by the extents of the Little Ice Age.
But as you well know, but continue to wilfully lie because it goes against your slimy anti-human agenda, the only time the extent has been above current levels has been the LIA, and ca couple of period in the highly beneficial warming since that coldest period in 10,000 years.
Your continued DENIAL of the basic facts marks you are NOTHING but a low-life, LYING , snivelling cowardly TROLL
From Connolly Sr., Connolly Jr. and Willie Soon 2017. It looks as though the most recent peak was circa 1970?
RECOVERY from the LIA, moron !!
Stop your slimy DENIAL, Jimbo.
Current levels are still way above the MWP and WAY, WAY above the 90-95% of the last 10,000 years
You ONLY way you can push your putrid sea ice bed-wetting is by DENYING REALITY.
Icelandic sea ice records clearly show a large drop from 1920 to late 1960’s, out passed Iceland.
The data that CCS reanalysed was already cherry-picked by the AGW scammers, avoiding anything with a pronounced dip, such as the DOE, and Icelandic data.
If you have any data showing that the ex-Bering straight region had extended sea ice to balance out the huge dip around Iceland, then produce it…. or crawl back into your sewer.
Andy – Why do you keep changing the subject?
This graph is from the NSIDC:
http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/sotc/sea_ice.html
It looks as though the most recent peak was circa 1970?
Why do you DENY that Arctic sea ice is above what it has been for 90-95% of the Holocene, Jimbo
What PUTRID, LYING little con are you trying to push this time. ??
Glad to see that you realise that the 1970’s was an EXTREME peak, up there with the extent of the LIA. Well done for FINALLY admitting that fact.
Were did NSIDC manufacture their data from before 1973, though Jimbo.
Seems they ignore any real data, like the DOE charts and the Icelandic sea ice data.?
Nothing unusual there, is it Jimbo.
Like you, they IGNORE and DENY any inconvenient data.
That is possible Jim, but the main point of that paper was the lack of sea ice data,yet make the ice cap look big on the maps.
They then bring up the Stein paper………,
Ha ha ha.
J Hunt – you ought to read the paragraph below it. There are uncertainties.
Rob B – Of course there are uncertainties!
Funny how reports from the serious “ice sites” are usually out by he 10th. This month they are at least one week late. Got some explaining to do!???
Regarding Arctic ice rather than Greenland ice, an interesting recent post at WUWT includes this link to a recently published paper showing that Arctic ice has grown, decreased, grown and decreased over the last century.
I would bee interested to know how it compares to the maps you showed comparing a National Geographic estimate for 1971 compared to 2017.
https://globalwarmingsolved.com/data_files/CCS2017_preprint.pdf
best wishes…..
Yep, the last 400 years or so it has been at its highest extent in the last 10,000 years. It has fluctuated back and forth a bit, but remains higher than it has been for 90-95% of the last 10,000 years. Stein shows this in this graph extracted from his paper.
I don’t know how that yellow circle got there. ! ignore it.
Well we’re taking our 2 1/2 year old granddaughter to the Indianapolis Zoo today. Unfortunately one polar bear they had died in 2009 (Tahtsa was the oldest Polar bear known anywhere). Then last year they shipped out their other Polar bear to the Detroit Zoo. They haven’t gotten any new ones.
It’s worse than we thought! Another polar bear population goes extinct! Obviously we are not starving enough poor brown people to placate Gaia.
They say they like to replace an exhibit that closes with one having an endangered species. I’ll what, if anything, has replaced the polar bear exhibit. As far as I know, there is no new polar bear exhibit on the horizon at the Indy zoo. But it is still a wonderful zoo.
In my college years, I used to go to the St Louis Zoo on the coldest Winter days to photgraph the polar bears. They would break huge chunks of ice off of the edge of their ponds, and then throw them about like it was nothing.
If you have never visited the St Louis Zoo, I highly recommend it. It is still a free zoo, and usually ranks in the top 5 zoos in the US. It is also located in Forest Park, where you can find vestiges of the 1904 World’s Fair, and many other wonderful attractions. And yes, they still have polar bears.
Besides Indianapolis I have been to the one in Cincinnati and the huge one in San Diego. Also visited the Munich zoo while living in Germany.
I was pretty disappointed in our zoo. Not nearly as many exhibits as it once had and the fences they are using are not child friendly. It was one of the hotter days we’ve had this summer breaking 90 deg. F and the granddaughter got miserable so we skipped some stuff. But all in all it was a good time. We’ll try again in a year or two to make a spring trip.
Now it’s off to bed. At 02:30 depart for Findlay, OH then down to Dyersburg, TN to deliver the cans or lids then over to our little terminal in Paragould, AR to pick up a Tenneco load to bring me back home.
The Russians just turned up at the North Pole in a massive nuclear powered icebreaker – 79 hours from Murmansk.
http://thebarentsobserver.com/en/arctic/2017/08/icebreaker-reached-north-pole-record-speed
Wikipedia says: The icebreaker is an upgrade of the Arktika class. The 159.60 m (524 ft) long and 30.0 m (98 ft) wide vessel, with a displacement of 25,840 metric tons, is designed to break through ice up to 5 metres (16 ft) thick.
One way of reducing the amount of Arctic sea ice. ! :-)
Is this the new one that has the heated hull?
Now why would they build such a beast if there was not going to be any sea ice left .
And with the LK-60s being built, one has to wonder why they are even considered necessary is a region when there will be zero sea ice in just a couple of year. ;-)
I don’t imagine those things are cheap !
.
In the article it sez: partly full disappearance of multi year ice …. WTF is partly full???
That sounds like something the Grifftard would say & think.
So if it is so easy to reach the north pole, why were those 3 Russian ships stranded in the ice last winter????
Incidentally, Hadow’s trip has since fallen through (obviously he didn’t read the same posts that Griff has):
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sailing-to-north-pole-will-have-to-wait-dkm95rtrd
Now he says he’s going AROUND the NP. If you want to track him here you go:
http://www.arcticmission.com/follow-arctic-mission/
They didn’t even get to the 1981-2010 mean before quitting? They had 1000 km to go before hitting 15% ice. Weird.
HYPO.. and PUBLICITY !!
They would have always known they had no hope of getting anywhere near.
Of course they haven’t quit! They’re currently heading due north:
http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/07/pen-hadows-arctic-mission-to-sail-to-the-north-pole/#Aug-19
Surely you guys don’t believe every (Sunday) Times headline you read, do you?
So you say he is still going to try and go to the pole as he originally stated was his objective? If not then he did quit the mission and gave himself a new one with a completely different objective of sailing around the pole.
I guess Pen Headow is another evil genius who thinks ice is more important than human life. Huge shock that Genocide Jim is a really big fan. If these kinds of self aggrandizing stunts were not helping to snuff out millions I would simply call them pointless, but there is a common thread of anti-human ideology to them all. Why do leftists hate poor brown people?
Jim Hunt, they are in ice free water (still in an area outside the mean extent for August. Why shouldn’t”t they keep sailing? But they have written off getting to the NP.