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The Swiss tradition of armed neutrality rests on a base of compulsory military service. It also requires homes to include fallout shelters and for the homeowner to keep his military issue assault rifle handy.
The training is time consuming and a real burden, so it is not politically as sacrosanct as it was 20 years ago, but in aggregate, the law corresponds well to the beginning language of the second amendment, just not the latter part.
Still, the low level of gun crime in Switzerland is more a reflection of a stable society, without large slums or ghettos, with a very decentralized administration. Crime is a local issue and dealt with accordingly.
good point
Firearm related deaths (all causes) per capita are lowest in the UK compared to the US and Switzerland.
Suicide is highest in Switzerland, partly because of the high gun ownership. Guns don’t allow for second thoughts.
3 times as many people in the US get murdered (per 1000) than in the UK. That goes up to over 4.5 times the Swiss.
Draw from that what you will.
That the US has states bigger than these countries, they are tiny countries compared to the US…………..
Which is why is chose per capita values.
And what are you trying to say with that?
Try and not be blinded by your American self entitlement and arrogance to understand that the values used are per capita values
The vast majority of gun deaths in the US are due to gang violence.
Ditto the UK. The same applies for stabbings.
Nutters blasting total strangers is the exception, not the rule.
Incidentally the weapons used in the fatal shooting of 12 people by Derek Bird in Cumbria were legally held, with suitable licences. Roal Moat only managed to kill 1 with his illegal weapon/s. Does that suggest a lack of practice for the unsanctioned gunman?
Over the past weekend, about 12,500 people died worldwide in automobile accidents.
Does carrying a weapon make you a safer driver?
Care to cite a source for that? All of you pronouncements are suspect when one considers the title of your article after viewing the following statistics.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sz-switzerland/cri-crime
There were 68 murders in Switzerland with firearms, so let me ask, are just making things up? Are you not privy to one’s ability to locate just about any information on the internet?
Most murders in the US are committed by blacks, who make up less than 15% of the population and vote 95% for Obama.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl03.xls
Te source for the Switzerland numbers is the BBC and is right in this post. Do you have bad eyesight, or are you just clueless?
thanks for the link Steve…..
so over one third of murders are committed by less than 15% of the population….
Using liberal logic……we should outlaw blacks
Oh Steve, my eye sight is fine; it’s yours that I question. First off, in 2011 you cited a 2001 article as evidence of what? Nowhere in the article is there any numbers related to gang violence in the U.S. There a no numbers related to the amount of automobile accidents worldwide (which by the way, we have restrictions on the use of automobiles, because, just like guns the lack of restrictions on operating automobiles leads to more accidents). Damaging to your credibility and your point is the fact that there is no mention of the title of your post; that the gun crime rate is so low that they don’t keep statistics. In fact, they do keep stats and the link that I posted points that out. So far, I have shown you hard evidence that you fibbed on the title of your post, and all you have shown me is that you get emotional in your responses and you like to change the subject so you don’t ever get put in your place about a topic. Worse, you show yourself to be a bigot while trying to evade the reality that the facts simply don’t support your emotional views. Even worse than that, you miss the most important paragraphs in the article: “Despite the lack of rigid gun laws, firearms are strictly connected to a sense of collective responsibility. From an early age Swiss men and women associate weaponry with being called to defend their country.” You’ve been spouting off for over a year about this topic and have yet to make a rational point supported by any sort of evidence. Ironically, I’m the one that looks dumb for wasting my time with your silly posts.
Good day to you Sir and God Bless America.
Please provide official references for your claims.
Where do you get your accurate statistics>
Of all the inanimate objects on this earth guns are the only ones which have a causal effect on crime is a false postulation by gun control that is a complete and total lie.
What is this mysterious and incredibly elusive causal effect claimed. Does it have a name? Can anyone describe it and show how it works to cause all these things claimed here. Suicide, murder, robbery, genocide…
If guns cause anything why have none been tired in our courts of law. Do the courts not believe the gun was simply a tool? Gun control knows more than the courts? Mistrial innocent or gun control are the biggest liars on this earth?
Insane must be the mind that believes you can legislate the criminal and deranged into good behaviour by removing guns from the law abiding.
Some real evidence is needed here and not cherry picked BS. correlations that have no relationship.
I’ll see your joker and raise you and ace.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
Mostly you are using your numbers in a very misleading manner – there are more people in DFW than Switzerland – and you statement about suicide has more to do with isolation than guns. You thoughts are not based in reality.
Suicides are due to hopelessness, depression, and a lack of connection with Jesus. Guns are only as good or as stable as the people using them, as are knives, hoes, tire irons, wrenches, crow bars and other blunt objects.
It would be interesting to compare the use of psychopharmacological drugs, tranquilizers and “recreational” drugs.
According a UN 2002 report, England has the worst crime rate in the world.
England has worst crime rate in world
Telegraph, U.K. ^ | 01/12/2002 | David Bamber
Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 11:47:38 AM by ElkGroveDan
England and Wales have the highest crime rate among the world’s leading economies, according to a new report by the United Nations.
The survey, which is likely to prove embarrassing to David Blunkett, the Home Secretary. shows that people are more likely to be mugged, burgled, robbed or assaulted here than in America, Germany, Russia, South Africa or any other of the world’s 20 largest nations. Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/798708/posts
We probably do. We have a terrible justice system with almost no punishment. It’s a totally separate issue to gun ownership.
Bottom line – I’d rather be a live victim of crime than a dead one.
Well that’s a relief…
…I didn’t realize you could only commit a crime with a gun.
Bombs are illegal, how’s that working out for you?
It’s a UN report so I don’t believe it. There WAS for sure an agenda behind it. The UN doesn’t just commission/release reports to inform the public. NEVER EVER EVER BELIEVE UN REPORTS.
And New Zealand has a higher crime rate? I don’t believe it, unless having a few beers and swearing at each other loudly is considered a crime by the UN.
The UN figures are based on the countries own reports. What does that say for your misinformation? Yes the UN is biased but the figures are not made up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7922755/England-has-worse-crime-rate-than-the-US-says-Civitas-study.html
http://politicaloutcast.com/2013/01/englands-crime-rate-nearly-four-times-higher-than-united-states/
And ask an expert
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/12/so-did-piers-morgan-and-christiane.html
Since all I was commenting on was the fallacy of claiming that privately held guns saved lives, what have bombs got to do with it? Or are you suggesting that if the UK people were all armed we’d have been able to stop the tube bombings or something like 9/11? How did that work out for you?
You certainly back peddled real fast.
From being the live victim of a crime, than a dead one.
Gun control does not stop crime. It only creates less of an opportunity for crimes to have been committed with a gun. But it does not change the crime rate.
If someone wants to commit suicide, kill someone, or any other crime, they are going to do it. No one goes to a legal bomb shop to buy a bomb.
The highest gun murder rates are in cities with gun control.
No back pedalling.
Firstly it’s almost impossible to compare statistics of crime between countries since laws vary, reporting varies and impact varies. What is ignored in one country is investigated in another. The only only easy measurement of overall safety from crime is murder.
Secondly.
Steve was attempting to demonstrate that guns made for a safer country. I was pointing out that it wasn’t obvious from the facts.
How odd that the Nazis didn’t allow Jews to own guns.
Tiny, I can’t keep up with your back peddling….
You very first post “compared statistics of crime between countries” and you didn’t limit it to murder.
==============================================TinyCO2 says:
January 10, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Firearm related deaths (all causes) per capita are lowest in the UK compared to the US and Switzerland.
Suicide is highest in Switzerland, partly because of the high gun ownership. Guns don’t allow for second thoughts.
3 times as many people in the US get murdered (per 1000) than in the UK. That goes up to over 4.5 times the Swiss.
Draw from that what you will.
Ok I’ll draw a conclusion. What has “gun crime” got to do with it. Are you saying in countries where citizens may not own arms or defend themselves criminals are so stupid that would not use lesser weapons to threaten or kill victims to avoid the harsher punishment of firearm use for the SAME results?
In a country where citizens (Victims) are denied firearm ownership or self-defence few own and carry firearms. Would the rate of justifiable shooting not be minuscule? “Gun crimes” (Gun Homicide) can be expected to decrease but what about VIOLENT CONFRONTATIONAL CRIME?
Do such people really believe everyone is stupid and cannot see their deliberate manipulation of facts to deny the truth. Which country actually records this ridiculous concoction of gun control “gun crime”? England? How not surprising.
Violent crime capital of the world or in the top 3. Home invasions a speciality. What’s going to stop them? Idiots with pepper spay in the kitchen drawer who gave up their rights to be safe like gun control promised.
The British bill of rights their forefather gave them, these useless, uncaring, unthinking fools treated the lives given and blood their forefathers spit as garbage. Perhaps they deserve gun control.
If the passengers on the planes had been armed, they had the means to stop 9/11. The problem is that we are being taught to be dependent on the government for physical protection. The government does rarely sit in the seat next to me to provide that ptotection.
I am 70 years old and have not had one instance in my life that the police was there when I needed them. It is unrealistic to expect that you are being protected at all times by the government, even if they like to create that image. Why should anyone give up their means of self protection as long as the government cannot provide 100% protection?
It’s ironic, we have the 2nd amendment to protect ourselves FROM our own tyrranical government. The government is to raise armies to protect our borders. It’s not about gun control, it’s about control, period! Look up the term “democide”.
“Since all I was commenting on was the fallacy of claiming that privately held guns saved lives”
In the U.S. every 18 seconds someone uses a privately held gun to protect themeselves… do these people not exist in your world? Every 18 seconds privately held guns saves lives.
So you’re saying that the US is much more dangerous than the UK? Because very few people have to fight for their lives against strangers here, and I suspect the same applies to the US.
Many of the assaults in the UK are by young men, on young men, usually drink fuelled. Would this be improved by adding a gun tor two to the equation?
Assaults on women are also often connected with alcohol consumption. I don’t see US gun ownership reducing the rape stats against the UK.
So what you can only mean is that owning a gun pretects you against theft. I’ll give you that one.
I can guarantee you a gun would protect me again abduction and rape….
….wait, let me rethink that
I only meant that the gun owners that protect themselves have at least saved their lives and possible their families and bystanders… nothing else. You stated… “Since all I was commenting on was the fallacy of claiming that privately held guns saved lives”
Lives are saved. That is the only point I a made. It isn’t fallacy as you claim. It is fact. You can read whatever else into it you want but you will be over analyzing.
I think more crime comes from lack of proper “home training” or “up bringing” and a total lack of punishment at all levels, like taking punishment out of schools. I think a lot of things, but they don’t apply to this thread and the gun issue.
Gun ownership makes where I live much safer. Cities with gun control have much higher rates of gun violence.
What a load of codswallop!
When was the last time you, or anyone posting here had to defend themselves from a life threatening attack?
We don’t have very many life-threatening attacks in Fort Collins because a lot of us are armed, unlike our heavily Democratic neighbor to the south – Denver.
But thanks for the typically irrational left-wing thought.
The mere possibility of a home having firearms thwarts an invasion in many cases. The highest crime rates in the US are in cities with strict gun control laws take the guns out of law abiding citizens hands, not the criminals. ie., Washington DC and Chicago. When the criminal has no fear of being shot in a forced entry, he has nothing to dissuade him/her. I WILL be keeping my guns, thank you!
Wolverine,
You’ve got that right!
I dare you to come to my town and attempt a home invasion. I guarantee that better than 90% of the homes in my small town in Tennessee are armed, and armed to the teeth. Heck, I know a guy right down the block that owns one of these (their made right down the road):
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9VGZjBQHr0s/SV-4T8-n88I/AAAAAAAACiQ/_OUHcphvhpE/s400/m82a1.jpg
The city I came from (Fargo, ND), same holds true there, but at a somewhat lower percentage rate. Fargo typically averages 5 or 6 murders per year, primarily from gangs that have begun to move into the area. North Dakota is the most gun friendly state in the country. I dare anyone to attempt a home invasion on any of the local farms. They aren’t going to make it to the front porch, let alone break in to anything.
ROFL …. Probably not a good idea to shoot a 0.50 caliber rifle in your house.
If you read all through the BBC article it makes the point etudiant makes. Switzerland is a wealthy country with very little of the poverty/drugs/gang problems that we have in the UK and US.
If that is so, then guns are maybe not the problem at all.
Maybe the crime would be committed anyways with another weapon.
In Texas, supposedly you can shoot someone for trying to steal your car.
I’m in the market for a gun…. or several.
the right to defend yourself is most essential to any consideration of ‘human rights’. it is the right to life itself an unarmed man is a slave.
around these parts no one locks their doors and generally leave their keys and wallets in their cars etc….because nearly everyone is armed. 3 out of 5 folks on my street have a loaded .45 or 9mm next to the bed. the other two keep their firearms in the ‘closet’
well, i feel inspired….going out to ski around and shoot my saiga 😉
The sign of a healthy society is the presence of weapons everywhere but none with the desire to use them. Paraphrased From the Tao Te Ching. Written by Lao-tzu. We don’t need to control guns we need a better class of leaders, who aren’t greedy and arrogant. The more the seek to control things the more out of control things become. Also paraphrased from the Tao. It looks like the Swiss have figured this out already.
Perfect! I like that!
Excellent point!
what better way to make people violent than to say no, tell your teenage daughter to not hang with that worthless piece of shit guy now she will fuck his brains out out of spite hang with the guy say hes awesome hes not longer cool or dangerous no one cars. Demonize guns, has the same effect people WILL use them to kill murder and terrorize, guns are legal and abundant in america but still a majority of people know little about them and aren’t knowledgeable at all because of this the simple presence of a gun can spark terror in some people you could rob a store with a toy gun in america, The swiss are so accustomed to it the simple presence of a gun would not do shit to them because they are experiences and knowledgeable, a criminal toting a gun solely isn’t as big a threat.
More gun control pretty much just makes people want the guns more, will make illegal guns more desirable, and empowers people who already have no intention of following the law.
Also to the guy saying he’d rather be a living surviver of a crime than a dead one, if a criminal wanted to in the UK anywhere the world for that matter he WILL have a gun, but since your a law abiding citizen in the UK he KNOWS you don’t have a gun so he can easily mug you with a knife or something no need to give a shit, in america he has to take in account he might have one and in all honesty a law abiding civilian is more likely to shoot in self defense than a cowardly mugger or robber whos only advantage is that he has a gun, many of them are cowardly and nervous a society with no guns only makes those criminals more confident if they do mange to have a gun well they are on top of the world now they can do ANYTHING, in america no, you get violent with a gun someone can take you down easily
I’ve actually begun considering a gun purchase, for the first time in my life, & I’m 52. I think more than anything as a statement against any attempts to not allow me to. I consider my self 100% sane, & have 0% criminal record.
I’ve been around guns all my life, and have never had a problem. On the other hand, I have been hit by cars while riding my bike several times. Tens of millions of people get seriously injured in automobile accidents every year.
Exactly. Even though I’ve never owned, the reason was never that I felt they were unsafe. Everyday life is more unsafe.
And even now, I don’t feel more of a threat from someone who is armed, even here in Brooklyn. My feeling of threat comes from a government that may attempt to infringe further on my rights.
Exactly what the 2nd amendment is for; to protect yourself from a tyrannical government.
Naku, thanks for drawing attention to this old post on Switzerland. In a rather graphic example I think you are talking aboutpsychological reactance. It’s like, perhaps I wasn’t planning to do something, and then someone says “you CAN’T do that!” and I react by going ahead and doing what I wasn’t going to do to begin with. That’s one of the results of the know-it-all liberal BANsters when they try to force bans of sodas, fatty foods, cigarettes, and guns or whatever, on top of infringing on freedom, you will anger a lot of people, and cause a psychological reactance that often will lead to -increased- consumption or use of the prohibited thing.
does it matter at all that what you write isn’ true?
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/19/03/02/dos/03.html
I actually don’t write for the BBC, but thanks for the thought.
That BBC article is old and factually incorrect on the surface. Switzerland DOES in fact keep firearms crime statistics.
Well I for one didn’t latch onto the crime statistics claim. Hell in this day and age every statistic that can be kept is kept, down to how often we flush our toilet, if we all had “SMART TOILETS” connected to the internet so the public utility could monitor usage. And sooner or later we will have SMART TOILETS. and as for the posts that make the per capita arguments and the ones that don’t seem to get that, There are many factors, the equation is not a simple one, beyond me (no doubt). I can recognize that understanding the meaning of statistical Data is complicated and can see some of the other factors. Which makes me marvel at how literally simple minded so many people are. I forget who said it but the quote goes something like this, “There are three kinds of lies, Lies, damn lies and statistics”.
As far as gun violence in the United States goes, We had 19 shootings in Chicago just last night. And in NY city yesterday two killed and nine wounded in one incident. But I am still for the right to own firearms just because some people don’t know how to act including government, police and political leaders. doesn’t mean that sane responsible people should have their guns taken away. Sorry about reality but I don’t think I would like to live in a world where they rich and powerful had the only weapons. I think that has been tried before and it was called the Dark ages, Feudalism.
When the rich and powerful have the only firepower then you will see were the right to vote comes from. The Barrel of a Gun. And if you think otherwise, you don’t understand Human nature and the History of the world you were born into. The fact is the more people that are armed the more politicians respect your rights. They only respect power and are motivated by fear. Sad to say but surely you know the truth of what I am saying. Don’t test it by giving up your right to defend yourself and then find out what a fine lot of people are in power. Look at the Ego Maniac we have for a President now. He was all about fighting out of control Bush and the Patriot act until he became President then he took the Patriot act and put it on steroids. Not all he as to do is say the word and poof you disappear or can be eliminated. Without the chance to go before a Judge and defend yourself against charges. Extrajudicial punishment. These are criminal acts and these are the people you want us to trust to protect us. Wow.
Chicago – the City of Barack Obama and gun control.
Your statistics are all WRONG.. In the US, the Number 1 reason fro Gun Deaths is self-murder… Which accounts for more than 50% of all Firearm Deaths in the US.
If you are thinking about suicide, you should seek help from a professional.
I just looked up another VERY INTERSTING statistic… FIrst, you are right about Switzerland’s Homicide rate. It is very neglibable, 0.58 out of every 100,000 population. Which is about the same as the Accidental Gun Deaths in the US… 0.32/100K… However, the Suicide Gun Deaths in the US (which account for 50,5% of all gun deaths) is 5.71/100K and the Suicide Gun Death rate in Switzerland is 5.61/100K… almost EXACTLY the same… And in Switzerland Guns account for 88% of all Suicide Deaths… So what does that tell you? That, a country that has a VERY LARGE PERCENTAGE of guns in it’s population, will have a VERY LARGE SUICIDE rate.. because, guns are the MOST EFFICIENT METHOD OF SUICIDE.
I don’t think that is a fair or accurate analogy. Suicide is not caused by guns, but by the mental station of the individual. If one wants to kill themselves, they will. I would argue that overdosing on sleeping pills is more efficient and much less painful. My point being, it’s a social problem, not a gun control problem.
I suppose Japan then would be an unfair comparison because it does not prove a deliberate falsification of information and unrelated comparison only gun control would make.
@TinyO2 Check facts my friend. The murder rate using guns in Switzerland is so low they don’t even keep statistics!
How much do they pay people to defy all logic, immediately deny any pro-gun argument, and respond with “feelings”? Is it possible that people are really this stupid? I hope not.
The amount of dis-info on any article pointing out the flaws, and lies of the anti-gun hipsters is insane.
Big money. Gun control spends all it’s money on propaganda and highly paid professionals who get paid well to promote the myth of gun control. All will have a social psychology degree or training. Firearm organisations do what, hire lawyers?
To put things in perspective (since intelligent thinking has to include an element of perspective, not knee-jerk reactions to headlines): Automobile accidents are big killers in the U.S., they kill many children, many times more than gun-related deaths. Just banning all leisure driving would save many people (including children), many more than gun-related deaths. Leisure driving is not a necessity. So where are all the people pushing for a ban on leisure driving?
Drunk driving kills many. Why aren’t people banning alcohol?
Well, many people on both sides of the gun issue, including politicians, enjoy leisure driving and wouldn’t give it up even if it will save more people than by banning guns. Many people, politicians, religious leaders, also enjoy alcohol.
Problem here in the U.S. is that we have different communities with different cultures on guns. It’s easy for someone not brought up in a culture of guns to say we need to ban all guns. It’s going to be harder for someone raised in a gun culture. It’s why it’s been an easy target for mainstream media and politics to instigate a heated debate upon, one more divisive wedge to throw in there.
Since I don’t care for football and could personally care less if it disappeared from the face of our planet, I could easily be biased and support its ban, even if it saved only one high school football player (I believe four die per year in our country).
However, liberty comes with risks. Someone with a logical rational mind with a healthy sense of perspective would not support such a ban, even with the deaths in mind.
This article has tons of falsehoods. For instance stats on gun homicides ARE kept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Gun_crime
and guess what they were nearly all of them until they disarmed in 2007. Within 3 years homicides were reduced by 50%. Suicides showed a similar before/after.
You’re definitely correct that gun homicide statistics are now being kept, but Switzerland did not “disarm in 2007”, that is patently false.
Im sorry id sooner have universial healthy care then a gun, my health is worth more then a damn piece of metal and if you live in states and have no health insurance, mak4 sure you have you constitutionally mandated gun so when the pain from say your cancer gets to hard to handle you can say your goodbyes to family close bedroom door and put as bullet in your head ending all your pain and suffering, very efficent and hey cheap too what does a bullet cost?
Any country that places its values on a gun more then the health of its people is a country that can be very very dangerous because their people mean nothing to them like China and former USSR and can lose a million souls in a war and feel no remorse just cut back on abortions and well replace them in a couple years just saying! seems thats the value of life in the great USA so sad!