While climate alarmists have been telling endless lies about record heat and melting in the Arctic and Greenland this winter, thick ice has been pushing into the East Siberian, Chukchi and Beaufort Seas – which determine the summer minimum extent.
Ice extent is nearly identical to all recent years.
Ocean and Ice Services | Danmarks Meteorologiske Institut
And Greenland is blowing away all records for ice gain.
Greenland Ice Sheet Surface Mass Budget: DMI
Climate alarmists are not scientists, they are not honest, and they need to be defunded.
If they’re not honest then why are you linking to their data? Hahahaha!
The first link even goes against your claim that arctic ice volume hadn’t changed, you need to look closely at your own sources before making incorrect claims.
Moron alert
Guy can’t even read….
Yep, great example of the typical ignorance of the masses that believe in AGW/human caused catastrophic climate change. Can’t even read a link and forget about clicking on one before showing his ignorance.
Jack,
You made a statement you didn’t back up.
Where is your evidence?
You’re deaf, dumb and blind too then Tommy? Like Jack said:
“The first link even goes against your claim that arctic ice volume hadn’t changed”
“Ice extent is nearly identical to all recent years.”
A true statement.
The error margins would mean that there is no significant difference from any of the previous years.
in 1000 km³ approx. volumes from DMI.
2008 … 22
2009 … 22.5
2010 … 24
2011 … 22
2012 … 21 (lowest)
2013 … 22
2014 … 23
2015 … 23
2016 … 21.5
2017 … 21.5
Jack was wrong, you are wrong
The Link CONFIRMS Tony’s statement.
Eat you eat again, Jimbo
Darn typos
Eat your feet again.. Jimbo.
Eat this Andy:
Can these kids have something to eat Genocide Jim?
Poor Jimbo, NSIDC shows sea ice extent this year has been greater than that of 2015 and 2016 over the last few days.
Sorry if you clownish, yellow-back trolling is being shown to be nothing but empty blah blah
But blah blah is all you have , isn’t it Jimbo, you evil little anti-human cretin.
even if that PIOMAS chart is accurate and there is this ‘global melting ice problem’ and yaknoww..it’s SUCH a big problem in this world that we gotta spend billions on this desperate attempt to undo that terrible few centimeters of sea level rise that happened in the last decade.. We’re obviously still way below the sea levels of a mere 1000 years ago.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/2071/most-comprehensive-assault-global-warming-ever-mike-van-biezen
“There is plenty of evidence found in the Dutch archives that shows that over the centuries, parts of the Netherlands disappeared beneath the water during these warm periods, only to appear again when the climate turned colder. The famous Belgian city of Brugge, once known as “Venice of the North,” was a sea port during the warm period that set Europe free from the dark ages (when temperatures were much colder), but when temperatures began to drop with the onset of the little ice age, the ocean receded and now Brugge is ten miles away from the coastline.”
Notice the area where Roman sea ports are now inland is tectonically stable according to NASA.
List of Roman Sea Ports found inland
(Has great pictures and maps.)
For the areas occupied by the Romans it was tectonically stable (pretty close to zero) or actually sinking! “..the pivot point is rather abrupt; Scotland is still rising due to the rebound effect which is correspondingly sinking England 2 millimetres into the North Sea each year.
A NASA model of current surface elevation change due to post-glacial rebound and the reloading of sea basins with water. Canada, Northern Europe, and Antarctica are all currently rebounding at a rate of a few millimetres per year. More water in the oceans as a result of ice sheet melting is slowly depressing sea basins. Satellites are used to observe differences over time. ” Glacial Isostatic Adjustment
MAP:
Red is rebound or rising land
blue is sinking
MAP of Post glacial rebound in the British Isles
Green is rising
Orange is stable
Red is sinking
Jack, what about the last TEN years of incorrect predictions of no summer ice,made by alleged Arctic experts.
The ones they have been wrong over and over?
Jack,
Do you not understand that you discredit the cause by leaving such a stupid comment?
Come back and fix your mistake by making a solid progressive argument.
Jack,Griff,Jim:
Want to explain away this new science paper?
New Paper Indicates There Is More Arctic Sea Ice Now Than For Nearly All Of The Last 10,000 Years
http://notrickszone.com/2017/03/02/new-paper-indicates-there-is-more-arctic-sea-ice-now-than-for-nearly-all-of-the-last-10000-years/#sthash.PuVHIiyM.dpbs
There is a gorgeous chart in the link.
AND another resident troll.
(Good paper)
Its great to see a paper using the Iceland sea ice graph I have posted so many times :-)
I can’t see the link to the actual paper on that website so I have asked the owner to post it.
I did find a paper by Ruediger Stein for 2017 but does have same content as quoted on the website.
So I can’t explain this new science paper.
Andy
It was HERE:
Stein et al., 2017
you just had to hover over the blue print.
Seems like this might be Fake News.
That chart in the link doesn’t seem to be in the original paper.
Also the comments on the paper do not seem to match what the paper is saying.
I’m asking the website owner more info on what he stated to see if it matches up.
Andy
The problem with any Arctic winter extent is that the extent is limited on most sides due to land mass. Hence the “proper” extent is limited to a great extent. And it means fluctuations on Atlantic and Pacific sides have more effect than they would have if those land masses were not there.
So I don’t rate winter max one way or another to be honest. It does not tell us much compared to the Arctic summer . You can see from the Charctic graph the summer has more chance of showing proper trends as not as much land mass interacting nowadays when the ice is mainly away from land.
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-ice-graph/
Andy
No, summer ice extent is at the whims of the weather and particularly the AMO.
You justification for looking at the summer extent is null and void (like most of your arguments are)
Best to look at the trend in the whole years sea ice extent.. no cherry picking required.
And since the AMO peaked in 2006..
well……
… no cherry picking this data only goes to 2006?
Here is the whole data-set going back to 1979. Yes, there is still ice in the arctic but the trend is alarming.
Bill, what do you find alarming about the trend you see?
Nothing alarming at all Bill, unless your mind is stuck in the tiny period since 1979. You do know that 1979 was an EXTREME level, don’t you, up there with the massive high levels of the LIA?
Its actually still well above pre-LIA levels, and probably around the same as in the 1920-1950’s
And tell us.. why did you turn off 2006, 2015, 2016….
LYING by omission, like Jimbo and griff always do, hey.
I didn’t turn off anything fuckwit, I just posted the link to their site. You are supposed to be looking at the depth of the shaded area, not the lines, that’s a clue.
The grey shaded regions extend deeper in the summer, showing the increased summer variability, which was my point, over winter, which is capped by being landlocked.
You really are as thick as pigshit I am coming to realise.
Andy
roflmao…
Oh dear , you poor petulant little child. 5 year old tantrum.. much ! :-).
Being likened to your troll mates griff and jimbo is what set you off , isn’t it.
Shaded areas are based on the rising at of the AMO.
Didn’t you know that?
typo fix
Shaded areas are based on the rising arm of the AMO cycle.
And no, there is plenty of space down past Iceland, and outside the Bering Strait where Arctic sea ice can and does expand.
That is why the Iceland Ice index is interesting
It shows clearly than 1920-1950 were “low” years, while the late 1970s was a period of extremes.
Waiting for another very funny tantrum from you, oh petulant one.
I’m sorry but the ice extent in the middle of the Arctic basic in summer is further away than the AMO than where the ice extent is in winter. So the AMO must have more effect in winter than in summer as is closer. Or can you show data otherwise?
Show me a scientific paper which shows AMO affects summer ice extent more than winter. Have you just made that up to try some counter argument?
Andy
AMO affects both..
Even someone as thick and ignorant as you must know that. !
perhaps you should do a little bit of research on Arctic sea current before you make any more of you low-level comments
War Between the Andy’s, but I am staying out of it!
And the other is firing blanks. ;-)
Huh?
http://gizmodo.com/antarctic-sea-ice-crashed-this-year-and-scientists-dont-1792935389
Really? :lol:
Could anyone tell me what the significance of the polar ice is?
The simple answer would be that a warmer world would mean less sea ice.
That is fair, like a warmer world could mean less and shorter snow cover.
The big question is still, in what way would a lower ice extent influence the climate.
According to DMI there is not a simple connection between sea ice and temperature, so how would sea ice extent influence climate, if it does. And is sea ice extent a good measure of global warming?
The short answer is there is no direct connection between sea ice and ‘global temperature’ because sea ice is dependent on ocean currents and ocean currents oscillate.
The 2017 paper at no Tricks Zone:
Holocene variability in sea ice cover, primary production, and Pacific-Water inflow and climate change in the Chukchi and East Siberian Seas (Arctic Ocean)
Earlier studies:
Temperature and precipitation history of the Arctic
A 10,000-Year Record of Arctic Ocean Sea-Ice Variability
Looks to me like the the Arctic Oscillation (AO), the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) and the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) define the Arctic sea ice.
http://climate.ncsu.edu/climate/patterns/NAO.html
The Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO)
http://climate.ncsu.edu/climate/patterns/PDO.html
The oscillations are both air pressure (winds) and water temperature patterns.
If the earth was entirely black and the earth was entirely white would the climate be affected in different ways?
There is your answer
Andy
And to quote the first paragraph of the article Gail seems to have failed to read fully, but has quoted on the abstract ….
“Arctic sea ice, with it’s strong seasonal variability, is a critical component in the global climate system, contributing to changes in the Earths albedo, primary productivity and deep water formation”
So actually the article stresses the connection between sea ice and climate, Gail just couldn’t be bothered paying $6 to read more than the abstract…
:)
Andy
Ever time you post, more and more of your ignorance is exposed..
Quite funny !
Please keep posting so we can find the real depths of that ignorance. :-)
We often hear it said that the loss of Arctic sea ice is more important than gains of sea ice in the Antarctic. This is typical Dis-information.
In October, 2013, the Antarctic sea ice extents was at a record high maximum at right at 19.5 Million square kilometers. over 1.5 Mkm^2 of “excess” southern sea ice extents. ALL of this “excess” sea ice was between latitude 60 south and latitude 59 south and covered an area about HALF the size of Greenland, larger than Hudson Bay (Also centered at latitude 60 north)
Did we hear about this??? HELL NO!
Instead all we get is yammering about the Arctic sea ice disappearing.
At today’s sea ice extents, the “edge” of the Arctic sea is a tiny ring about latitude 78 -82 north in mid-September. The “edge” of Antarctic’s sea ice minimum is also a “ring” – but that ring is about latitude 66 south. Much closer to the equator, much more energy reflected from the Antarctic sea ice, right Andy?
Now, at maximum extents, the “edge” Arctic sea ice is at its closest point to the equator is only down to 72 north, not even as close to the equator as the minimum Antarctic sea ice. But at its maximum, Antarctic sea ice extents is much, much higher at 59.2 to 59.0 latitude. Closer to the equator than even the most southern tip of Greenland!
At the equinoxes, when both Arctic and Antarctic are both hit by the same solar intensity, the Antarctic Sea Ice receives between 2x (Feb-March) to 5x (September-October) the energy that the Arctic sea ice receives. Thus, to reflect equal energy into space, the “gain” of even 1.0 Mkm^2 of southern sea ice extents needs to be balanced by a loss 2 to 5 TIMES LARGER in the Arctic.
Worse, the Antarctic sea ice minimum is exposed to significantly MORE solar radiation at the peak of the yearly solar cycle in January-February than the arctic sea ice minimum in August September, when the solar energy production is lower. (Solar minimum is 5 July each year, when the Arctic ice is exposed. But Antarctic sea ice – even at its minimum extents, is much more exposed in January.)
To recap
Albedo of Arctic sea ice changes only based on day-of-year. Albedo starts high at 0.82, stays steady at 0.82 until May, decreases through the summer to a low of 0.46, then rises again to 0.82 until about September, then remains at 0.82 until the end of December. This is from Dr Curry’s measured data.
1. Albedo of sea ice does NOT change with latitude.
2. Albedo of open ocean changes with every HOUR of every day as the solar elevation angle changes each minute. Specifically, open ocean albedo does NOT change explicitly with latitude, but latitude affects the overall SEA change over day-of-year AND latitude and hour-of-day (HRA), These changes are based on the earth’s declination and geometry and is strictly and specifically defined. But, Hour-of-day and day-of-year CANNOT be separated from latitude.
3. Opposite the above, the yearly maximum solar radiation occurs in early January at 1410 watts.m^2. The minimum solar top-of-atmosphere radiation occurs July 3, when the Arctic sea ice is decreasing strongly day-by-day, BUT while Arctic sea ice is between min and max. Roughly, the edge of Arctic sea ice is between 74 and 76 north.
At the point of maximum solar radiation at TOA, the ANTARCTIC sea ice is is a wide “ring” slowly varying from 59.2 south (last October under 1370 watts/m^2) to about 64 south latitude (in January under 1410 watts/m^2) to a minimum sea ice extent at 3 Mkm^2 (in March at 70 south latitude back down to 1360 watts/m^2). So, when the TOA solar radiation is at its maximum, ARCTIC sea ice is dark. When the top-of-atmosphere radiation is at its max, Antarctic sea ice is not at its minimum.
Net effect: As a whole, Antarctic sea ice is MUCH, MUCH closer to the equator every day of the year.
Overall, increased heat losses from open ocean in the Arctic (when Arctic sea ice is at a minimum in late August-September) are much greater than increased heat absorbed into that open water. More sea ice loss in the Arctic => More heat loss from the planet and a net cooler planet.
The opposite happens in the Antarctic: More sea ice around Antarctica means more heat reflected from the planet and a net cooler planet.
It is not really necessary to “combine” or group the other two parts of the Antarctic
Up north, the Arctic Ocean STARTS at 70 north latitude, and this IS the southern limit of the Arctic Ocean. Essentially ALL “Arctic sea ice” then cycles between 70 north latitude (at MAXIMUM extents at 14.0 Mkm^2) and 80 north (if 4.0 Mkm^2). In the future, this minimum could go even closer to the pole: if there were 1.0 Mkm^2, all the arctic sea ice is a little beanie cap from the pole to 85 north latitude.
The Antarctic sea ice is INCREASING at all times of the year.
The Antarctic sea ice cycles between a minimum of of 4.0 Mkm^2 at latitude 70 south, to a maximum of of 19.5 Mkm^2 at latitude 59.2 south.
The Arctic sea ice only varies between 72 north and 82 north.
On EVERY day of the year, Antarctic sea ice is exposed to 2 to 5 times the radiation that Arctic sea ice receives, and therefore Antarctic sea ice is 2 to 5 times MORE important to the earth’s heat balance than the Arctic sea ice.
(H/T RACookPE1978)
“…So we find that, adding the two poles together, this year [2013] there has been much more ice at the summer solstice than the 30-year mean. <b.Therefore, much more sunlight has been reflected than usual, and not less as is implied.…” link
This is why I ignored ARCTIC albedo.
“…Rather than an “arctic sea ice amplification” the numbers show that – during the late melting season under today’s conditions, every square meter of open ocean north of 76-82 north LOSES more heat on a daily basis than does sea-ice-covered arctic waters under the same air conditions! “
Late melting season sea ice is dirty (Thanks China) and the albedo is calculated below by RACook.
RACookPE1978 has a “spreadsheet copy” of a spreadsheet he has for all latitudes for the actual radiation on to a horizontal surface at 12:00. This is the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE solar radiation. Every other minute of the day, solar radiation levels will be less.
“If the earth was entirely black and the earth was entirely white ”
It isn’t either, you dopey putz.!!
Why can’t you AGW trolls stick to what is rather than going off on hallucinogenic rants all the time !!
Guys,
Has anyone looked into the possibility that the Daws is one of the many
Soros-paid trolls? That might explain a whole lot about why he is the first
to post complaints about the veracity of the reports at this site. Reliable
sources have it that the trolls sit around all day in the basements of their
parents house (out of gainful employment) in their pajamas or dirty undershirts
waiting to pounce on anything contradictory to their cherished belief structure.
For their meager efforts they are paid cents on the dollar. If Daws is compensated
to the the extent of a nickel a post, Soros is being shamefully defrauded.
HL
Strictly anecdotally, I noticed over the years that a troll happens to be the first commenter on quite a few of Tony’s posts. I don’t know if any of them get paid but some give you the impression of religious fanatics following Tony’s new posts and rushing to be first to contradict him.
That’s the best laugh I’ve had all day, thanks. I think that bible is even bigger than Bill Clinton’s bible he always used to carry prominently.
Tony,
Thanks for pointing out the pattern in Greenland surface mass balance. If I extrapolate that the rest of the year curve parallels the mean, then the max will peak Jun 1 or 2 at 680 Gt, and then finish the year at 430 or so.
Do you have any idea why the GRACE dataset has stopped updating? It seems to be stalled in mid 2016. Cheers!
She’s out to lunch…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qovk8_wIdn0