President Obama has pledged to run the US off green energy.
Disrupting the Borg is expensive and time consuming!
Google Search
-
Recent Posts
- Climate Engineering
- The World’s Worst Scientists
- “Trees are feasting on decades of carbon dioxide emissions”
- A Real Hockey Stick
- A Real Hockey Stick
- Doubling Energy Costs
- Doubling Energy Costs
- “You Can’t Hide Your Lying Eyes”
- Australia Permanent Drought Update
- Let Them Burn Wood
- “New computer modeling”
- Climate Destroying Shrimp
- What’s At Stake?
- Too Hot To Live
- What’s At Stake?
- “The world began to end on 12th May 2024”
- “Climate change is a myth”
- Racist Gas
- RFK Jr. Discusses The Green New Deal And Climate
- “world is on edge of climate abyss, UN warns”
- Ivy Echo Chamber
- Climate Homicide
- Much Ado About Nothing
- Homophobic Gas
- World Bank Expectations
Recent Comments
- Ivan G Wainwright on Climate Engineering
- Russell Cook on “Trees are feasting on decades of carbon dioxide emissions”
- Bruce of Newcastle on “Trees are feasting on decades of carbon dioxide emissions”
- Conrad Ziefle on The World’s Worst Scientists
- arn on “Trees are feasting on decades of carbon dioxide emissions”
- Francis Barnett on “Trees are feasting on decades of carbon dioxide emissions”
- arn on “Trees are feasting on decades of carbon dioxide emissions”
- Steve Cooksey on “Trees are feasting on decades of carbon dioxide emissions”
- spren on “You Can’t Hide Your Lying Eyes”
- Jack the Insider on Doubling Energy Costs
He has also pledged to keep the price of coal down, so no need to worry
Shutting down coal powered electricity will keep the lights and heat off for many poor people.
When every miner with CWP disease can get over $1200/mth benefits what does that add to the cost of coal ?
A more diverse mix is my preference.
Obviously, ‘Turbinia’ is a long way off yet
http://img.deusm.com/designnews/2015/02/276621/Windapt5.jpg
Wind can never be a dispatchable source of power. It is inefficient, redundant, intermittent, stranded, generation. Once all that is overcome with pixie dust, all will be well. A decent treatment might be had at http://www.slideshare.net/JohnDroz/energy-presentationkey-presentation
Yes Lance, that is the reality of the situation. Sometimes, it appears the Wind energy supporters are taking pixie dust as they are not in the real world. Wind energy on the Grid for base load power has failed in most countries. I’ve seen days where claims of 90% generation for a State,,, a few days later 5% ; they need to face reality…
Bingo, Marsh. EU tried going green electric. It doesn’t work.
Green energy fiasco in
Spain: http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090327-employment-public-aid-renewable.pdf
Denmark: http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate/opinion_something_rotten/
Germany: http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/germany/Germany_Study_-_FINAL.pdf
Solar Power Reality
http://carbon-sense.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/solar-realities.pdf
Cost of Wind Generation
http://carbon-sense.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wind-power.pdf
Wind Power:
http://www.northnet.org/brvmug/WindPower/CommonSense.html
Wind:Intermittency Study
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/22/wind_intermittency_study/page1.html
I would think twice; from what I’ve read here – http://climate-ocean.com/2015/K/k-.pdf – and on other blogs where you can find some sicentific studies, it seems that those wind-parks may influence climate in an unexpected way: “Several thousand offshore facilities on the bottom of the sea or anchored offshore rigs divert currents at sea and influence tides and currents as a permanent resistance against the normal flow of huge amounts of ocean water.The result is like stirring hot soup. Warm water will come to the surface and the heat will supply the atmosphere with warmth. The air will become warmer and the winters will be milder. The correlation is not to be overseen. It is not relevant to climate research or agencies allowing offshore structures who do not consider such evaluations.” So….. we can have green energy, but what’s the cost? Will everybody assume it?
Obummer wants the price of coal down so China can buy US coal and coal mines on the cheap to provide cheap energy for the elite owned factories in China. —- See Chris you just have to Follow The Money.
As U.S. taps shale gas, Chinese firms have sights on its coal mines
From Mother Jones: Why Big Coal’s Export Terminals Could be Even Worse Than the Keystone XL Pipeline: Proposed Northwest coal ports could have a bigger climate impact—with local pollution to boot.
Coal Gross Exports.
http://www.motherjones.com/files/Coal-exports-chart.jpg
http://www.motherjones.com/files/Coal%20export%20map.png
I think if we’re honest with ourselves we know that the price of coal has nothing to do with Obama himself…he’s merely the public facade of industry led decisions
I love it… ISIS inspired Windmills!!
Birds of Prey flying through Wind Farms are like Christians in a boat full o’ Muslims heading to Italy !!
Some news for subsidy students
http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277266&itc=dn_analysis_element&cid=nl.dn14.20150421&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_auto,industry_gov,kw_33,aid_277266&dfpLayout=blog
Okay it hasn’t happened, but indications are good for the letting go of the EV business into purely public owned markets without subsidies.
The same will be true of wind in time…I would expect to see a subsidy reduction for all wind in 10 years as it manages to gain it’s projected returns from reinvestment
I wonder why there are fewer vertical axis windmills. Perhaps Chris could explain what the advantages of these are and why they are not more common despite those advantages.
I guess if you wanted to know that it would be better if you just popped that into the clue box on Google rather than wait for a reply from me……from memory vertical axis turbines tend to (but not always) have slightly lower efficiency, and it’s more difficult to scale a VAWT to the same sizes as horizontal rotor designs for MW sized units.
Small scale VAWT’s can work in lower wind speeds, and mounted lower to the ground, but a a low ground turbine of MW capacity would have to reach up as high as existing HAWT and that means a highly flexible rotor cage design would need to be employed….currently the flexion in a HAWT is limited to usually the blades.
Take a VAWT and tip it over horizontally and then find a way to change it’s height above ground so that it was always in the fastest flowing slice of wind, and you then have a better solution
That’s roughly the basis of the high altitude wind turbine designs, where gas balloons, kites or some other method is used to hold the turbine in the high altitude wind flows….a lot of research is ongoing regarding capturing the power in the jetstream. Costs are high, but if fossil fuels rise in price as expected it all becomes feasible in the not too distant future
I thought the disadvantage of VAWTs was that they aren’t self starting, and require starter motors which cut into overall efficiency big time with inconsistent winds.
The most recent info I have had for wind machines in general is that worldwide the average energy production is about 25% of faceplate number.
UK wind, currently providing 0.5GW out of 12GW installed.
Well done guys ! 😉
Anthony S says “I thought the disadvantage of VAWTs was that they aren’t self starting, and require starter motors which cut into overall efficiency big time with inconsistent winds.”
Where ever did you read that ? Just curious. Its not what experience tells me….ever seen a VAWT made of two halves of an oil drum offset to one another ? They self start
Large VAWTs self start and self regulate too
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2007/02/vertical-axis-wind-turbine-is-self-starting-and-self-regulating-47509
Even the more unusual designs seem to run up by themselves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5XyfsQQ2lg
And when installed as larger arrays you get more of a ‘slicer-dicer’ action
which will spit out shredded sparrow and starling to attract raptors which will then increase in number due to the availability of food
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BbSYfAw7Zc
Barbara “The most recent info I have had for wind machines in general is that worldwide the average energy production is about 25% of faceplate number.”
I have only ever used that number in my calculations, but i was regularly called a liar for doing so……hope you have better luck !
Anthony…here’s probably the lowest wind speed VAWT…mounted at ground level (unheard of usually) self starting , hundreds of watts for a low wind speed. At about 1.55 the areodynamics/ vortex imaging explains the principle of operation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOWGATlzSrM&feature=iv&src_vid=FYMZvnER0BQ&annotation_id=annotation_135273
UK wind currently at 3.5% of nameplate..
UNRELIABLITY factor …… probably around 3-4% of nameplate
That ALL you can rely on for most of the time.
The recurring theme in your article is “subsidy”. Taxpayers are funding the losing economics of EVs. That is the only way EVs “work” because it isn’t a viable product. “The same will be true of wind in time..” Really? When is that? When wind goes over 30% capacity factor? When more dams are built for pumped hydro to take out the peaks and troughs? Your understanding of free markets, subsidies, backup generation, reliability, dispatchability, and reality are seriously flawed. Tell ya what. Why not solve all those issues and then bring it to the table?
President Obama has repeatedly said we should look to Spain and Germany for the lead on renewable energy policy. He is right, “” but not in the way he thinks “” !!
…
Germany and Spain are waking up to the inevitable truth about renewable energy, especially offshore wind. They are now realizing the projects cannot survive without subsidies and that they make energy much more expensive to households and businesses. In an age of austerity, they are a luxury even Germany, Europe’s economic powerhouse, cannot fully afford any more.
( America should learn from Europe on wind power: Column – Iain Murray )
…
Germany is indeed avoiding blackouts—by opening new coal- and gas-fired plants. Renewable electricity is proving so unreliable and chaotic that it is starting to undermine the stability of the European grid and provoke international incidents. Green Energy and base load power are not even on the same page ; Coal will be “more reliable” and “cost effective” for decades to come !
…
There is a correlation with Green Energy and CAGW ” but not in the way many think ” the Green
Data is tampered with – to match the philosophy, for political support & attract funding.
Thank you, Marsh, for telling it like it is. I was reading recently that solar and wind power are so useless that the debate is about whether they achieve any reduction of carbon dioxide at all. If it weren’t for fossil fuels there wouldn’t be enough energy to build them in the first place. Imagine trying to make steel with solar power! For every watt of power actually generated, 60% of it is needed/required totally, absolutely 24/7 the year around.
Germany and Denmark would often be in the dark except for France’s nuclear and Norway’s/Sweden’s hydro. Worldwide renewables now are about 0.04% of energy supply; prediction is that by 2040, that will have risen to 2.2%. I love fossil fuels and a greener planet. Recommend Alex Epstein’s book–The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels.
EU climate/energy policy is bankrupting the EU. Go figure.
http://www.globalwarming.org/2014/12/02/eu-climate-policy-boomerangs-subsidizes-coal-gas/
“The EU’s unilateral climate policy is absurd: first consumers are forced to pay ever increasing subsidies for costly wind and solar energy; secondly they are asked to subsidize nuclear energy too; then, thirdly, they are forced to pay increasingly uneconomic coal and gas plants to back up power needed by intermittent wind and solar energy; fourthly, consumers are additionally hit by multi-billion subsidies that become necessary to upgrade the national grids; fifthly, the cost of power is made even more expensive by adding a unilateral Emissions Trading Scheme. Finally, because Europe has created such a foolish scheme that is crippling its heavy industries, consumers are forced to pay even more billions in subsidizing almost the entire manufacturing sector.”
Isn’t economic, social, cultural, and actual, suicide an illogical act?
Yes, Marsh, absolutely correct. Reality is teaching Germany, Spain, and Denmark, about real economics.
Spain: http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090327-employment-public-aid-renewable.pdf
Denmark: http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate/opinion_something_rotten/
Germany: http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/germany/Germany_Study_-_FINAL.pdf
Germany, via political subsidy, has inverted reality to the point that no one is willing to finance a coal plant, even thought their grid is about to fail. Read it and weep:
http://joannenova.com.au/2015/04/thethe-german-electricity-crisis-twice-the-price-but-everyones-going-broke/#more-41988
In effect ; this should be a ” heads up ” for other Countries to learn what doesn’t work !
Even some States of the USA have banned private investment in Wind Farms so it’s not just heads of Government ; it’s surprising Obama could be so naive and out of touch.
The German electricity crisis – twice the price, but everyone’s going broke…
” When the Germans mess something up, they do it properly ” (for all to witness & learn)!
Yea , it’s a good article Lance…
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/01/28/article-1350811-0CF36063000005DC-625_634x286.jpg
This toxic lake poisons Chinese farmers, their children and their land. It is what’s left behind after making the magnets for Britain’s latest wind turbines… and, as a special Live investigation reveals, is merely one of a multitude of environmental sins committed in the name of our new green Jerusalem
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-Britains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html#ixzz3Xnu93Gg1 ;
Prior to making magnets for wind turbines (the latest largest turbines have no permanent magnets anyway) that same plant made magnets which fit inside everybody’s computer hard drives…..headphones for our iPods…fans in our ari conditioning units…even some starter motors in our cars
But besides that, they also made the magnets which went inside coal fired power stations, in the motors driving the conveyors, the computers again…and so on.
Neodymium magnets are also commonly used in the hard drives of computers, in telephonic applications, in television and video applications and for chip detectors.
Neodymium magnets are also very popular in the manufacturing of generators. Generally the stronger the magnet the better the generator.
Medicine & Health Uses Of Neodymium Magnets
Neodymium magnets are very popularly used for magnetic therapy to help alleviate the symptoms and relieve pain caused by health problems like arthritis. They have high healing ability and often called healing magnets as well.
NASA uses Neodymium magnets for the purpose of maintaining muscle tone in astronauts during space flights.
Neodymium magnets are used in MRI scanning machines.
Prior to making magnets for wind turbines (the latest largest turbines have no permanent magnets anyway)
So they musy be replaced on a regular basis?
Neodymium Magnets were not even discovered until 1982, when GM disvered the Nd2Fe14B compound.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/01/28/article-1350811-0CF36063000005DC-625_634x286.jpg
Great view though! If only we had a better more efficient meanns of producing power…
“So they musy be replaced on a regular basis?”
Harhar….
The use electromagnets
…and that is identical to the generators in coal and gas fired plants now
An electromagnet is a type of magnet in which the magnetic field is produced by an electric current. The magnetic field disappears when the current is turned off.
https://www.google.com/#q=electromagnets&spell=1
Perpetual motion machines! 😆
From the Daily Wail article “the region has more than 90 per cent of the world’s legal reserves of rare earth metals, and specifically neodymium, the element needed to make the magnets ”
The same region and factories provides the majority of rare earths in the global supply chain
““For example a smart phone has 8 different rare earths in it. Everything from the material used in its memory to the red coloured pixels of its screen and the polish used on its glass. , ”
There really no is escaping the fact that western modern life has caused this disaster is there Gator
I’ll see you your wide angle view…and raise you a wind farm built in the same city http://global.camcoglobal.com/honitonphase2.html
https://stevengoddard.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/2764.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/10/30/business/Rarejp/Rarejp-popup.jpg
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tehachapi-wind-turbines-P1.jpg
Gee, if only we had another, more efficient option….
Yep the GM plant that made those batteries was here in Anderson, IN. It was called ‘Magnaquench’ and I did flame sprayed abrasion resistant plates that were 6″ thick for them. The Chinese bought it and now that same facility is used for making plastic furniture and stuff.
As usual…you can always rely on the Daily Wail for a piece of nonsense to lighten up your day
one of the most polluted places on earth is around this copper smelting operation….the copper has been used in our coal and gas power generating plants…..right down to household wiring level….shame on all of us
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s–t2R18iiU–/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/18lsv7anklk0sjpg.jpg
I’ll see your carefully cropped photo, and raise you a wide angle shot…
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/01/28/article-1350811-0CF36063000005DC-625_634x286.jpg
I’ll see you your wide angle view…and raise you a wind farm built in the same city http://global.camcoglobal.com/honitonphase2.html
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/10/30/business/Rarejp/Rarejp-popup.jpg
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tehachapi-wind-turbines-P1.jpg
Gee, if only we had another, more efficient option….
Well…look…just as an idea….why not use coal….and then hide the environmental damage inside the body of the people who work with it ?
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.HtL45Zi2LV903bmlkHfqMQ&pid=15.1&P=0
And if you keep people out of the way they’ll notice the groundwater pollution
http://paddingtonuca.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/coal-mine-open-cut.jpg
Just as long as you don’t get yet another coal sludge spill in Kentucky
http://www.filtersfast.com/articles/ArticleImages/kentucky-coal-spill.jpg
Can you spot the strip mine here?
https://stevengoddard.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/2764.jpg
What about here, see any mining?
http://www.midwestind.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/reclaimed_strip_mine.jpg
If that’s the windfarm in Batou then it’s just over on the left….but as they’re installing asynchronous turbines they don’t use permanent magnets.
Who doesn’t love a windmill….
For starters, birds, especially birds like this. Then there are lovers of birds like me, and lovers of unspoiled scenery, like me.
https://toryardvaark.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dead_white-tailed_eagle-500.jpg
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tehachapi-wind-turbines-P1.jpg
“For starters, birds, especially birds like this. Then there are lovers of birds like me, and lovers of unspoiled scenery, like me.”
It’s not up to me but i suspect that as 80% of the worlds population lives in cities, the power hungry iPad, plasma screen, smartphone internet addicted actually care much less than you.
That’s just a sneaking suspicion with no figures to back it up though, I could be wrong there
They don’t need bird shredders for the power hungry iPad, plasma screen, smartphone internet.
Strip mine pollution runoff into the Ohio River. The polluted stream would, I imagine contain no fish…The birds which used the stream for feeding either also died of pollution through consumption or had to move to other environs
http://www.pollutionissues.com/images/paz_02_img0160.jpg
That is an accident, this isn’t…
http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20110413/0011111fa1560f0f41fd07.jpg
https://toryardvaark.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dead_white-tailed_eagle-500.jpg?w=640
Also an accident.
Or did the bird try to commit suicide ? We will never know
No, this is not an accident, it is an involuntary sacrifice, like those humans that government mandated wind energy kills every year.
We covered this already.
You never did tell me how many humans you are willing to sacrifice against their will.
How many killer?
“They don’t need bird shredders for the power hungry iPad, plasma screen, smartphone internet.”
Or fish farmers….
Fishermen and miners volunteer, those that your government kills with wind mandates do not volunteer.
We covered this already.
You never did tell me how many humans you are willing to sacrifice against their will.
How many killer?
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9501282/hating-the-daily-mail-is-a-substitute-for-doing-good/
You are obviously indulging in ‘virtue signalling’.
https://i0.wp.com/www.midwestind.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/reclaimed_strip_mine.jpg
Is that the land above the mine which suffered a collapse, killing so many healthy men ?
That was a real tragedy
No Dumb Dumb, it isn’t.
I was only asking…it looked a little bit like the Upper Big Branch Mine in Virginia where 29 good healthy men gave their lives in a mine disaster on 5th April 2010
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/08/20/business/economy/economix-20workerfatalities/economix-20workerfatalities-custom1.jpg
Hmmm, I don’t even see mining making the top ten. Shouldn’t we stop these activities first?
Of course we could do that…but how many Megawatts of electricity do those occupations contribute towards the big picture?
😆
You are going to bring up megawatt production while defending bird shreders? 😆
You brought up fishermen in relation to coal production 🙂
You brought up industry related deaths, and I put them into perspective, Dumb Dumb.
Into perspective with unrelated industries unfortunately
In perspective of voluntary sacrifice versus involuntary sacrifice.
We covered this already.
You never did tell me how many humans you are willing to sacrifice against their will.
How many killer?
Chris, Did you ever answer my question..
What percentage of nameplate can wind turbines guarantee to deliver 95% of the time?
In the UK its been below 1 GW out of 12GW installed for most of the last 24 hours.
UNRELIABLE !
The sooner they get rid of subsidies, rabid feed-in tariffs and preferential treatment and go to a contract to supply system, the sooner the world will be rid of this junk !!
“You never did tell me how many humans you are willing to sacrifice against their will.”
When you show the number of people who die from not being able to afford to heat their home we can discuss it.
You posted a figure for injury related industrial deaths. Black lung disease is not an injury related death statistic according to official figures….the very reason it is kept out of official figures is to hide the terrible toll death toll of coal mining disease
A work related disease is not thought of as an industrial injury
Your assertion that miners give their lives voluntarily suggests you don’t know much about miners. They know there is a risk, they assume the risk factors and aspects are monitored and managed by the mine managers.
There is no voice screaming more loudly about the need for reform in the mining industry than the miners themselves and to my knowledge there has never been a miner who said they would rather die of pneumoconiosis than not go down the mine to dig for coal. Ergo there is nothing voluntary about their death…Their choice is a bleak one….die of CWP or fail to support your family.
The killer coldly spews: When you show the number of people who die from not being able to afford to heat their home we can discuss it.
First of all, I started this discussion over UK deaths, since that is your homeland, and your endorsement directly effects only the UK. You keep throwing up worldwide figures on coal, which is a false argument, as anyone knows the Chinese coal industry work force is practically a slave colony, with little protection.
Some 7,800 people die during winter because they can’t afford to heat their homes properly, says fuel poverty expert Professor Christine Liddell of the University of Ulster. That works out at 65 deaths a day.
Yet the latest Office of National Statistics figures show that there were 25,700 excess winter deaths in England and Wales in winter 2010.
Meanwhile the latest WHO research suggests that 30 to 40 per cent of the excess winter deaths can be attributed to fuel poverty.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fuel-poverty-deaths-three-times-higher-than-government-estimates-7462426.html
So there is the raw number from 2010 or before. That answers your question, but let’s figure out how many wind kills.
This chart shows fuel poverty households doubling from 2004 to 2009.
http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/FT-on-UK-fuel-poverty.png
One of the major factors behind increasing fuel poverty in the UK is government policies instituted to meet carbon stabilization targets, the most aggressive in the world.
The average annual bill for a customer using electricity and natural gas is about 6 percent of median household income now, up from 3.3 percent in 2004. Since 2004, the cost of energy in the UK increased by 117 percent–more than six times faster than UK household income (which only increased by 18 percent since 2004). If these trends continue, energy’s share of median household income in the UK will reach 7.4 percent by 2013, 8.2 percent in 2014, and 10 percent in 2015.
And with these cost increases, the death toll keeps rising. So a doubling from 2004 to 2009, and 7800 deaths in 2010, means that a conservative estimate puts government mandated renewables at about 3500+ per year, 5 years ago. And again, the figures are rising.
This chart breaks down renewables by type, and wind is 67% of the problem.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/MoI-MAx-eijGUnltrTXdQtt8QNSA1TWlUxCWD9qGcrv2ALYlkJAMsWlYvo6J0jQhGjCXYsKkc0CLVYKxqO-QuFt92J-0Vs-ulpgSRCsVWcJgQ_69B8Q7rgBb8M8b9qAc3NAXIP0
When it comes to wind and solar power, onshore wind power is the most effective form of renewable energy in terms of capital cost. It only costs approximately 9 times as much as conventional power generation. On average across Europe, the capacity utilization is about 23%.
Offshore wind power is about 17 times more expensive to install, but its increased capacity factors mean that it should be significantly more productive than onshore installations. Nonetheless, in addition to the significant additional capital costs, offshore wind power appears to have major problems with costlier long term maintenance and questionable reliability.
http://notrickszone.com/2015/02/08/analysis-shows-wind-and-solar-power-in-europe-is-on-average-16-times-more-expensive-than-gas-fired-power/#sthash.WIriuIi7.dpuf
So with wind being overall the most expensive of renewables, 67% of 3500 is 2345 involuntary and innocent humans sacrificed in 2010, and again, he numbers keep rising. But just to be fair, let’s call it 2000 per year killer.
The killer claims, without citation: You posted a figure for injury related industrial deaths. Black lung disease is not an injury related death statistic according to official figures….the very reason it is kept out of official figures is to hide the terrible toll death toll of coal mining disease. A work related disease is not thought of as an industrial injury
That’s not what the law says, so you will need to prove that…
Illnesses created by the work environment, like medical conditions caused by exposure to chemicals, are also compensable. In general, any injury or illness that requires the worker to see a doctor or that results in disability or death qualifies for workers’ compensation benefits. A doctor must be able to verify that there is objective medical evidence showing that an injury or disease exists and that work exposure was the major cause.
http://www.segarlaw.com/questions/
The killer spews: Your assertion that miners give their lives voluntarily suggests you don’t know much about miners. They know there is a risk, they assume the risk factors and aspects are monitored and managed by the mine managers.
I don’t think these 2000 people want to lose their jobs, as it is not a strike over work conditions that is threatening to close the mines. Obviously these 2000 people want to work at the mine.
Two of Britain’s three remaining deep pit coal mines face closure in the next 18 months with the loss of more than 1,300 jobs under plans announced by the country’s largest coal producer.
UK Coal is consulting on plans to shut Kellingley in Yorkshire, which employs 700 people, and Thoresby in Nottinghamshire, which employs 600.
It will leave employee-owned Hatfield colliery in South Yorkshire as Britain’s last remaining deep pit mine.
Jobs are also likely to go at UK Coal’s head office in Doncaster, South Yorkshire.
It will mean the majority of the 2,000 people employed by UK Coal – which also operates six surface sites – facing a bleak future, just nine months after it was rescued from administration.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/02/uks-last-deep-pit-coal-mines-threatened-with-closure
The killer spews: There is no voice screaming more loudly about the need for reform in the mining industry than the miners themselves and to my knowledge there has never been a miner who said they would rather die of pneumoconiosis than not go down the mine to dig for coal. Ergo there is nothing voluntary about their death…Their choice is a bleak one….die of CWP or fail to support your family.
People who have a conscience volunteer for dangerous work all the time, because they are willing to sacrifice for others, even those they do not know. My family has always volunteered for military service, knowing full well they could be sent to war. My father, brother and nephew have all been deployed into war zones, and my father died as a result of his wartime service.
You are being purposely obtuse killer. Voluntary vs involuntary.
Of course if workers see a way that additional safety measures are feasible, they will call for them. Amazing how you worked that logic out all on your own! 😆
Britain’s most dangerous jobs
Builder
Rubbish collector
Miner
Shopkeeper
Mechanic
Teacher
Librarian
Estate agent
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/10845754/Britains-most-dangerous-jobs.html
By your logic the UK should stop all construction and garbage collection. Lovely! 😆
You have presented false arguments all the way down (with no citations), because you know you cannot defend the deaths of innocents who have not volunteered for sacrifice. When your government mandates wind energy, they are killing over 2000 involuntary and innocent humans per year, and that is an underestimation. It is also an abomination, and you support it.
Now that we have a very reasoned, reasonable, and conservative figure, we need your answer.
How many killer?
“In the UK its been below 1 GW out of 12GW installed for most of the last 24 hours.
UNRELIABLE !”
In direct contradiction to your ownar assertion that none can be guaranteed you continue to prove that without question some can always be guaranteed.
During the colder months, in January for example, wind was regularly producing over 15%……which means that at those times coal and gas imports were positively affected (best case scenario = no imported coal)….as coal and gas imports were reduced the reduction in the number of black lung disease cases can only have been affected positively, at the cost of a raptor or maybe two .
I can’t justify saving raptors for the sake of the lives of good family men who die a terrible death from a disease they don’t ask to get.
The ideal scenario is no deaths at all, but can you think of a power source which fits that criteria ?
Gees, Wind in the UK currently producing 448MW out of 12GW installed nameplate. That’s 3.7%… not very useful, hey !! 🙂
What was the percentage you said could be guaranteed to supply 95% of the time?
I don’t recall you ever having the guts to come up with a number 😉
The intelligent answer to the unintelligent question is ‘Who can guarantee when the wind will blow’
If you’ve confused what you’ve read about wind with other forms of power then that’s okay….but I have never read a statement saying that wind is going to be the base load
o
Obviously, Gator’s suicidal voluntarily death miners could do better for themselves by moving to other industries, if they are even profitable (nuclear cannot be profitable using current means of production)
http://d2itb63h5gldlw.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/death-rate-per-watts.jpg
But then who knows what Gator ever did as a job ? I’m just summising from Gator’s comments that they have never faced the situation of starve or do something terrible, which is the usual situation for many miners. I don’t know anyone who works for fun, let alone people who work to die for fun
In a nation where the average wage is $47000 it is interesting to wonder what sort of person thinks that someone working for an average of $30000 with an unacceptably high accompanying risk might consider themselves a willful volunteer ?
Even if the implementation of better working conditions for miners doubled the price of coal I would support such a measure. Would Gator ?
Looks like you failed again killer.
There were 28 fatal injuries in coal mining in 2007, down from an average of 31 fatalities per year from 2003 to 2006. In 2007, 20 fatalities (or 71 percent of all fatalities in coal mining) were in bituminous coal underground mining. Contact with objects and equipment and transportation incidents were the most frequent fatal events with 18 and 5 fatal injuries respectively.
http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/osh/os/osar0012.htm
That sure is alot less than 2000, but you better have Andy explain it.
Even if the implementation of better working conditions for miners doubled the price of coal I would support such a measure. Would Gator ?
Unnecessary straw man killer, even when you add in Black Lung deaths, you are less than 10% of wind turbine deaths.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/Statistics/causdis/pneumoconiosis/fig1.gif
But then who knows what Gator ever did as a job ? I’m just summising from Gator’s comments that they have never faced the situation of starve or do something terrible, which is the usual situation for many miners.
I was actually a repo man in East St Louis while a starving college student. I was shot at several times, but fortunately I was quite lean, and they were poor shots. I had people try to run me over, and more death threats than you can imagine.
I would have been a military man, like almost every male in my family for generations, but tore up my knees so bad playing soccer, that I could not even be drafted.
Now back to your death mills…
First of all, I started this discussion over UK deaths, since that is your homeland, and your endorsement directly effects only the UK. You keep throwing up worldwide figures on coal, which is a false argument, as anyone knows the Chinese coal industry work force is practically a slave colony, with little protection.
Some 7,800 people die during winter because they can’t afford to heat their homes properly, says fuel poverty expert Professor Christine Liddell of the University of Ulster. That works out at 65 deaths a day.
Yet the latest Office of National Statistics figures show that there were 25,700 excess winter deaths in England and Wales in winter 2010.
Meanwhile the latest WHO research suggests that 30 to 40 per cent of the excess winter deaths can be attributed to fuel poverty.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fuel-poverty-deaths-three-times-higher-than-government-estimates-7462426.html
So there is the raw number from 2010 or before. That answers your question, but let’s figure out how many wind kills.
This chart shows fuel poverty households doubling from 2004 to 2009.
http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/FT-on-UK-fuel-poverty.png
One of the major factors behind increasing fuel poverty in the UK is government policies instituted to meet carbon stabilization targets, the most aggressive in the world.
The average annual bill for a customer using electricity and natural gas is about 6 percent of median household income now, up from 3.3 percent in 2004. Since 2004, the cost of energy in the UK increased by 117 percent–more than six times faster than UK household income (which only increased by 18 percent since 2004). If these trends continue, energy’s share of median household income in the UK will reach 7.4 percent by 2013, 8.2 percent in 2014, and 10 percent in 2015.
And with these cost increases, the death toll keeps rising. So a doubling from 2004 to 2009, and 7800 deaths in 2010, means that a conservative estimate puts government mandated renewables at about 3500+ per year, 5 years ago. And again, the figures are rising.
This chart breaks down renewables by type, and wind is 67% of the problem.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/MoI-MAx-eijGUnltrTXdQtt8QNSA1TWlUxCWD9qGcrv2ALYlkJAMsWlYvo6J0jQhGjCXYsKkc0CLVYKxqO-QuFt92J-0Vs-ulpgSRCsVWcJgQ_69B8Q7rgBb8M8b9qAc3NAXIP0
When it comes to wind and solar power, onshore wind power is the most effective form of renewable energy in terms of capital cost. It only costs approximately 9 times as much as conventional power generation. On average across Europe, the capacity utilization is about 23%.
Offshore wind power is about 17 times more expensive to install, but its increased capacity factors mean that it should be significantly more productive than onshore installations. Nonetheless, in addition to the significant additional capital costs, offshore wind power appears to have major problems with costlier long term maintenance and questionable reliability.
http://notrickszone.com/2015/02/08/analysis-shows-wind-and-solar-power-in-europe-is-on-average-16-times-more-expensive-than-gas-fired-power/#sthash.WIriuIi7.dpuf
So with wind being overall the most expensive of renewables, 67% of 3500 is 2345 involuntary and innocent humans sacrificed in 2010, and again, he numbers keep rising. But just to be fair, let’s call it 2000 per year killer.
The killer claims, without citation: You posted a figure for injury related industrial deaths. Black lung disease is not an injury related death statistic according to official figures….the very reason it is kept out of official figures is to hide the terrible toll death toll of coal mining disease. A work related disease is not thought of as an industrial injury
That’s not what the law says, so you will need to prove that…
Illnesses created by the work environment, like medical conditions caused by exposure to chemicals, are also compensable. In general, any injury or illness that requires the worker to see a doctor or that results in disability or death qualifies for workers’ compensation benefits. A doctor must be able to verify that there is objective medical evidence showing that an injury or disease exists and that work exposure was the major cause.
http://www.segarlaw.com/questions/
The killer spews: Your assertion that miners give their lives voluntarily suggests you don’t know much about miners. They know there is a risk, they assume the risk factors and aspects are monitored and managed by the mine managers.
I don’t think these 2000 people want to lose their jobs, as it is not a strike over work conditions that is threatening to close the mines. Obviously these 2000 people want to work at the mine.
Two of Britain’s three remaining deep pit coal mines face closure in the next 18 months with the loss of more than 1,300 jobs under plans announced by the country’s largest coal producer.
UK Coal is consulting on plans to shut Kellingley in Yorkshire, which employs 700 people, and Thoresby in Nottinghamshire, which employs 600.
It will leave employee-owned Hatfield colliery in South Yorkshire as Britain’s last remaining deep pit mine.
Jobs are also likely to go at UK Coal’s head office in Doncaster, South Yorkshire.
It will mean the majority of the 2,000 people employed by UK Coal – which also operates six surface sites – facing a bleak future, just nine months after it was rescued from administration.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/02/uks-last-deep-pit-coal-mines-threatened-with-closure
The killer spews: There is no voice screaming more loudly about the need for reform in the mining industry than the miners themselves and to my knowledge there has never been a miner who said they would rather die of pneumoconiosis than not go down the mine to dig for coal. Ergo there is nothing voluntary about their death…Their choice is a bleak one….die of CWP or fail to support your family.
People who have a conscience volunteer for dangerous work all the time, because they are willing to sacrifice for others, even those they do not know. My family has always volunteered for military service, knowing full well they could be sent to war. My father, brother and nephew have all been deployed into war zones, and my father died as a result of his wartime service.
You are being purposely obtuse killer. Voluntary vs involuntary.
Of course if workers see a way that additional safety measures are feasible, they will call for them. Amazing how you worked that logic out all on your own! 😆
Britain’s most dangerous jobs
Builder
Rubbish collector
Miner
Shopkeeper
Mechanic
Teacher
Librarian
Estate agent
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/10845754/Britains-most-dangerous-jobs.html
By your logic the UK should stop all construction and garbage collection. Lovely! 😆
You have presented false arguments all the way down (with no citations), because you know you cannot defend the deaths of innocents who have not volunteered for sacrifice. When your government mandates wind energy, they are killing over 2000 involuntary and innocent humans per year, and that is an underestimation. It is also an abomination, and you support it.
Now that we have a very reasoned, reasonable, and conservative figure we need your answer.
How many killer? Happy with over two thousand innocent and involuntary bodies on your doorstep every year? Of course by now that figure is probably close to double, but you tell me if your death mills are worth the cost of 2000 innocent people.
Your advocacy sure puts the kill in kilowatt.
They are murder mills Chris, and you are their best advocate.
Run and hide..
Dig deep little worm ! 🙂
You really are a pathetic coward. !
ANSWER THE QUESTION, slimy little worm.
UK now running at 386MW out of 12GW.. that’s 3.2%
Trying to decide which is more pathetic,……
wind energy or you and your juvenile worm-like refusal to answer a simple question.
Thorium Nuclear….
Save the coal for use as a chemical precursor for plastics…..
Save all fossil fuels…not just for plastics, Gail….for all the amazing compounds we derive from them, from fertilisers to medicines……but ‘let the steam engineers burn them as fast as they can get them’ , seems to be the order of the day.
I had high hopes for Thorium…but it turns out that every reactor built since the 50’s had to be switched off because it din’t come up to scratch, or ended up needing so much uranium that a uranium plant became more financially viable
I also have/had high hopes for thorium. I keep checking progress via the World Nuclear Association
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Current-and-Future-Generation/Thorium/
(Updated April 2015) lots of info. here is one passage:
At least they do not offer B.S.
So India maybe where we see the development of commercially viable thorium nuclear palnts. India also had the good sense to toss the foreign Greenpeace agitators out on their ear. Why Greenpeace should be banned…
BAU here on planet Earth. The ‘Peak Sone’ scare was overcome by bronze, the ‘Peak Bronze’ scare was overcome by iron, the ‘Peak Iron’ scare was overcome by…
Let men do what men do best, innovate, and get government out of the way. Ignore and mock the Malthusians, shove tyrants to the side, and watch as we continue to make life better for all living creatures on planet Earth.
It will never be perfect, but it can be better.
As thorium in India is going to depend heavily on Uranium we had better hope that the Japanese attempts to recover uranium from sea water goes well or all the mineable uranium will run out first…..their current attempts produces very small amounts too slowly to be useful and their appears to be a complete lack of financial backing to scale up such an idea. They don’t seem to be as keen on nuclear don’t the Japanese, following Fukushima.
Tunnel and pit mining of uranium is the cheapest method, mostly carried out in Africa by the poorest workers in the worst conditions, but it gets the job done.
The majority of our uranium comes from leaching methods….uranium ore spoil stacks are flooded with sulphuric (sulfuric ?) acid and the uranium is dissolved….not an ideal system, especially if you don’t want the result to look like a Chinese rare earth toxic lake afterwards.
in North America the preferred method is in-situ leaching where the pregnant solution is pumped down underground and the uranium ore is directly dissolved into it before returning to the surface, in a process which isn’t too different to fracking.
The problem at the moment is that the more expensive leaching methods are hardly sustainable due to the low price of uranium and therefore the supply chain from Africa has been enlarged….which is good in the sense that it means the cheaper uranium can still be supplied to the existing reactors, but the method of recovery is highly controversial due to the obvious health risks to the workers bringing up the uranium cake.
Mine owners are known to refuse to attempt to rescue workers, following mine collapses, due to the costs involved.
The price of uranium fell so low following Fukushima in fact that the more expensive traditional tunnel mining approach proved to be too expensive (though I suspect that as it was a French company the working standards and safety precautions were exceptional adding a large amount to the overall cost
http://www.mining.com/low-uranium-prices-shelve-central-african-mine/
If we were to approach uranium from a market forces point of view then classical economics says as demand rises the price rises, which is good in the sense that it becomes more affordable, but then the costs associated with sustaining a high quality supply only adds to the price even further and that will be passed on tot he consumer. I don’t know how much a Thorium reactor costs to decommission, if it is anything like a conventional reactor then it will add a significant amount to the final cost of using nuclear, except it won’t be added onto the electric bills, but instead it will be paid for by the taxpayer through taxation as only government bodies are currently involved in decommissioning , using special licences, here in the UK
On in situ leaching [ Quote]
Solutions used to dissolve uranium ore are either acid (sulfuric acid or less commonly nitric acid) or carbonate (sodium bicarbonate, ammonium carbonate, or dissolved carbon dioxide). Dissolved oxygen is sometimes added to the water to mobilize the uranium. ISL of uranium ores started in the United States and the Soviet Union in the early 1960s. The first uranium ISL in the US was in the Shirley Basin in the state of Wyoming, which operated from 1961-1970 using sulfuric acid. Since 1970, all commercial-scale ISL mines in the US have used carbonate solutions.[2] ISL mining in Australia uses acid solutions].[3]
[Unquote]
If people are making huge noises about fracking….which only uses water under pressure….the backlash over acid or carbonate solutions can be expected to be larger if there is any signs that these methods produce damaging pollution.
Currently almost 50% of the world’s uranium is acquired through in situ leaching, ISL, and our friends at friends of the earth are keeping tracks already, as we might expect them to do
http://www.foe.org.au/anti-nuclear/issues/oz/u/isl/articles
Chris, the ‘plastics…..’ was for all the rest of the ‘amazing compounds ‘ I just can’t spell worth beans and I was too lazy to go look up the spelling of the words I wanted.
I am a chemist and worked in industry for years and consider burning organics a crying shame. That is why I am very pro-nuclear to the point I live near enough a nuclear plant I can see it’s cooling tower out the window.
If they could actually make the Thorium nuclear car work it would be FANTASTIC!
http://d3z1rkrtcvm2b.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1280x656xeqWJs.jpg.pagespeed.ic.Czk7zO60dE.jpg
(Not to mention the fact it is an awesome looking vehicle.)
Although at this point I think ships and possibly locomotives are more feasable.
If I was not on the wrong side of the county and dead broke I would consider this — draging our PhD Nuclear Physicist friend with us as translator.
http://www.thoriumenergyalliance.com/
HMMmm maybe I will ship that URL off to him and he might go without us and report back…
I have nothing against thorium nuclear.. except..
We NEED to keep adding CO2 to the atmosphere. Its been so very low for so long, and the biosphere is just starting to respond.
Let’s not go send the poor plants back to starvation rations.
Seconded!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2qVNK6zFgE&feature=player_embedded
Imagine how lush and large our forests would be, and how much more food we could produce on less farmland, allowing for more natural habitats.
The CO2-phobic not only hate humans, they hate plants and animals too!
Deep ocean reserves of liquid CO2 could be brought up to help increase CO2 levels without the need for burning more coal or oil or wood.
Andy,
There is no reason (except the madness of progs) to keep us from using both. Petroleum based products for transportation and nuclear for base loat electric. Natural gas for dmand load.
If we ever bother to help the third world into the 20th century, they will be burning a lot of carbon based products too.
For those who whine about too many humans and peak whatever I suggest reading:
There Is No Shortage of Stuff
Unlimiting Resources – Basalt for a High Tech Stone Age
There is no energy shortage
The best method for curbing population growth is civilization and education. When it comes to technology I am optimistic when it comes to politics I am pessimistic.
“Malthusianism is a school of ideas derived from the political/economic thought of the Reverend Thomas Robert Malthus, as laid out in his 1798 writings, An Essay on the Principle of Population, which describes how unchecked population growth is exponential while the growth of the food supply was expected to be arithmetical. Malthus believed there were two types of “checks” that could then reduce the population, returning it to a more sustainable level. He believed there were “preventive checks” such as moral restraints (abstinence, delayed marriage until finances become balanced), and restricting marriage against persons suffering poverty and/or defects. Malthus believed in “positive checks”, which lead to ‘premature’ death: disease, starvation, war, resulting in what is called aMalthusian catastrophe. The catastrophe would return population to a lower, more “sustainable”, level.[1][2] The term has been applied in different ways over the last two hundred years, and has been linked to a variety of other political and social movements, but almost always refers to advocates of population control.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism
Malthus failed to be a visionary, and did not foresee technological advances that have allowed humanity to prosper under populations far beyond his imagination. Technology and industrialization have not only saved humanity, but have also assisted in saving the natural world around us. We can now produce the same amount of food that we did in 1960, on a third as much land, leaving more room for nature. It is estimated that we have passed “Peak Farmland”, and that we can continue to support humanity on less farmland.
Sadly there are still many adherents to 18th century alarmism, and proselytes of Rev Malthuis with us to this day, and they call themselves “sustainability” advocates.
The following 10 minute video is inspiring, and well researched, and the message is that our grandchildren will be just fine, provided the governments let us be.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/8e7fKXu4nkg?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent
Yes, Gator, Andy we do need to up the amount of CO2. I would like to see 1500 ppm.
I wonder if we got the air up to 1500 ppm to 2000 ppm CO2 if a lot of the allergy and asthma problems would go away as the CO2 healed our lungs…
http://www.normalbreathing.com/co2-lung-damage.php
They Malthusian CO2-phobics give a whole new meaning to this old slogan, with their ethanol producing and plant food sequestering agenda…
https://quietripple.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/1964-esso-put-a-tiger-in-your-tank.jpg
Gail, the Buteyko method of breathing increases the amount of CO2 in the lungs.
Often asthmatics breathe too shallowly, and this reduces the CO2 in the lungs.
CO2 is a bronchial dilator, so is very beneficial to those suffering from asthma of the kind that restricts the bronchial tubes.
Neil, that seems an odd and rather expensive way of going about things, when just using coal for electrical power is already doing the job. 🙂
Yuck, more heavy rain. Work has been closed today and yesterday because of the dangerous storms. Went to do some shopping, trees down everywhere, traffic lights out, a lot of houses haven’t had electricity for 36 hours and counting. The place is soaked, its a total quagmire down the back of the yard.. Where’s Flannery !!
FYI – If you know an asthmatic, this is food for thought. I was canoeing in a remote area when a friend’s husband who lost his inhaler and nearly died. I wish I had known about this then…
http://medfraud.info/Barbados-study.html
http://www.everydayhealth.com/asthma/specialists/can-you-stop-an-asthma-attack-with-the-heimlich.aspx
It could save a life, but not all are not convinced.
Thanks gator, I seem to have developed Asthma over the winter and have friends and family who are asthmatics.
gator69 says: “BAU here on planet Earth. The ‘Peak Stone’ scare was overcome by bronze….”
You forgot the The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894
http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20140116&t=2&i=830097996&w=644&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=CBREA0F1I7W00
The January 16, 2014 comment by an irate french citizen -Say it with Horse Manure! – tempting, very tempting….
Just a trial
s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20140116&t=2&i=830097996&w=644&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=CBREA0F1I7W00.jpeg
Son, to me that’s a tiptoe through the tulips!
-Col. Sherman T. Potter
Speaking of spreading manure, these critters sure are happy spring is finally here…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-qf4Qs3TD0
My ponies celebrate spring by playing dead pony.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Grey_horse_lying_down_in_field.jpg
I was used to horses who normally do not lie down much. The first time I looked out the window on a spring morning and saw a whole field full of ponies laying flat out in the ‘dead’ position I almost had a heart attack. I was about to rush out and check to see if they were all dead when my Hubby said – “I saw an ear twitch”
This is the more typical position:
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/166/e/5/lying__pony_stock_5_by_bymelody-d3iyv4j.png
It’s funny, but nowadays I see a picture of psychopathic politicians doing that silly pose with hands on hearts, as in the picture at the near-top, and all I see are Nazi salutes.
It’s not the pose. It’s the Progressives on stage under an American flag, pretending they stand for liberty, that is silly.
It’s the Progressives on stage under an American flag, pretending they
stand for liberty,are not traitors to the USA and the Constitution, that is silly.There fixed it for ya.
Thanks! 😉
Those pictures at the top make me sick. Physically ill.
What the hell is wrong with people?
I am going to have to go watch the Lovely Bunch Of Coconuts video to cheer myself up now.
AndyG55 says:….
I think one of the reasons a mask helps an asthmatic is because it increases the amount of CO2 as much as it filters out irritants.