http://polipundit.com/?p=28878
h/t to Marc Morano
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Well, now, you see, you expected the guy to know what he was talking about. Sure he could have thought up a more appropriate example. But these folk don’t have time. They are scrambling for damage control. Thinking will come later…… I think.
Well here is a solution for all those poor buggers in the UK who can’t keep their houses warm. Leave your frdge doors open.
The food wont go off coz it’s too cold anyhow.
Jeff Masters wasn’t claiming it would warm the house up, the person trying to pick fault decided he had though. Leaving your fridge door open does indeed mean some of the cold air goes into your house, unless you house is colder than your fridge of course, then some of the warm air from the fridge goes into your house 🙂
Why doesn’t Polipundit go the whole hog and say that Jeff Masters claims fridges with doors left open will cause a snowball earth ? Idiot.
Andy
I think you need to reread the entire thing!
Mike Davis says:
December 29, 2010 at 5:53 am
I think you need to reread the entire thing!
They could do that but it looks like that won’t help since it appears they have comprehension problems. Or maybe they have preconceived ideas that won’t be changed no matter what.
Well Tonyd, from your post: “He specifically says that “cold air spilling out of the Arctic gets replaced by warm air flowing poleward.” So in that sense it is a decent comparison.”
I think it is pretty clear that he, and you, are saying that warm air is replacing cold air spilling out of the arctic.
Not warmer than the 30 year mean – warmer than the air it is displacing. If this is not what is happening then it is an incorrect theory of what is happening.
Thanks Andy for explaining what I was about to.
It is not a terribly accurate analogy. I read the whole article as Mike suggested and find nothing in it other than interesting talks about the NAO.
As you said nowhere does he say that it will cool the whole house. He specifically says that “cold air spilling out of the Arctic gets replaced by warm air flowing poleward.” So in that sense it is a decent comparison. With the door open, inside the refrigerator is warmer, and the area just outside is colder. So that someone standing NEAR the refrigerator would be convinced the house is cooling, when in fact it is getting hotter. He might even post blogs every day showing how cold it is near the refrigerator every day, proving the house is getting colder every day.
it is this type of totally transparent propaganda that tends to discredit people that deny ACC, since it doesn’t take any math or complex science to decode.
Tony
OK, so he was just saying the heat is being shifted around, like an open fridge would do.
Is there any observational evidence of all the heat which must presently be pouring out of this heat pump? A fridge will transfer the heat pretty near immediately, so if this analogy holds we should see massive warming elsewhere right about now.
Must have missed that.
many parts of the arctic are way above normal. This is from November. Not sure how to get December daily stats. temperatures.http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/do_nmap.py?year_last=2010&month_last=11&sat=4&sst=1&type=anoms&mean_gen=11&year1=2010&year2=2010&base1=1951&base2=1980&radius=1200&pol=pol
Peter Wilson says:
December 29, 2010 at 9:01 am
Must have missed that.
He’s missing a lot. But he thinks he’s smart. That’s probably why he’s missing so much.
Tony Duncan
You’re today’s prize winner for bringing up James Hansen!
I don’t care what source you use. I found that because Steve has linked to it. So blame him for introducing me to GISS.
If you find a source that shows the arctic is NOT much warmer than usual please be my guest.
But I guess ALL temperature sources are controlled by climate scientists so all say what the conspirators want them to say.
Tonyd says: “many parts of the arctic are way above normal. This is from November.”
Those are nice anomoly maps – infilled by Hansen.
What are the actual temperatures?
For your analogy to hold water, they would have to be higher than those at lower latitudes. So are the temps in the arctic warmer than in the US and Europe where you say the cold from the arctic has been transfered?
Glacierman,
I do not know that you are correct in your assertion that the temps in arctic areas would have to be warmer than a lower latitudes.
But at least that is not an insane assertion that the politipundit guy was correct in his gleeful assertion that masters does not understand thermodynamics
Glacierman,
I am not making any claim about anything regarding the arctic or anything in the real world.
All I am doing is showing how this post is blatantly ridiculous because politipundit is inventing a conclusion that Masters does not make, and uses that conclusion to contend Masters is an idiot and a fanatic
You have hit the nail right on the head, polipundit made up his own conclusion then spent time proving his made up conclusion was wrong and then attributed it to Jeff Masters.
You have to laugh
Andy
Crap, no wonder I’m feeling a little chilly .. one sec .. gonna go open my refrigerator door and heat this place up a bit … … there, that’s better.
My God, is there anyone out there with any usable brain cells at all anymore?
@ Tony Duncan : December 29, 2010 at 6:52 am
Total B.S !!!
Squidly.
Yup total BS that any non fanatic can see clearly.
the question is why would someone post something that is so obviously batshit crazy wrong? It totally discredits them. Now anyone that wants to say that arguments against ACC are baseless just points to this post and everyone with any knowledge of the issue will just laugh.
Steve and Mike and amino and SUYTS, should immediately put the guy in his place.
Your willingness to, uncritically, accept any explanation du jour (saison?) argues to the smallness, not the vastness of your knowledge.
“argues to the smallness, not the vastness of your knowledge”
Nice!
Deebee,
are you seriously suggesting that this post is not whacked?
Which particular explanation are you imagining that I am uncritically accepting?
lol, Tony I don’t have omnipresence at this site, but what part are you complaining about?
Masters is the one that came up with the “refrigerator” analogy. This Polipundit is simply stating the obvious. If you leave your refrigerator open, the compressor on the back of your refrigerator will warm the room that it is in. Contingent upon the room’s temperature being …..room temperature(sorry, couldn’t help it), of course.
Tony, when cooling objects, the energy cost is more than warming objects in the same amount in the opposite direction. If you want, I can look up the pertinent formulas, but you can try this at your home. If you have a window air conditioning unit, pull it inside, turn it on high, close the window. I guarantee the net temperature in your room will warm. Or, in the summer, when running your AC go out side and stand by your unit. Notice the heat generated. Understand this is energy spent necessary to cool your home.
Hope that helps. Or if I missed your point of contention, we can try again.
Thermodynamics, laws of The three laws were put in a memorable form by the English scientist and novelist C. P. Snow: (i) you cannot win (matter and energy are conserved); (ii) you cannot break even (cannot return to the same entropy state, since disorder always increases); (iii) you cannot get out of the game (absolute zero is unobtainable).
Tony
As usual he GISS anomaly map you link to shows great warming wherever NASA has no thermometers – it is well known there are none in the Arctic ocean – those huge brown patches are the result of 1200km smoothing, so a few airports around Siberia heat the entire Arctic ocean.
I’m sure the December map will show whatever Dr Hansen wants it to say in those areas yet again. Perhaps you might try a more credible source – CRU perhaps.
It’s revealing when someone will only talk about GISS ‘data’ and no other. Funny how they act like they are unbiased but then will not question why GISS data is different than other data sets—very revealing.
Amino,
the magnitude of your projection skills is a marvel to behold As is the profundity of your psychological assessment skills. Please show me where I have ever “only talk[ed] about GISS ‘data’ and no other”.
As I said find me any source that shows the arctic not warmer than normal.
AndyW :”Jeff Masters wasn’t claiming it would warm the house up….”
Jeff Masters: “As a science geek I can say with confidence that leaving the refrigerator door open will actually WARM your house…..”
Science Geek 1 0 AndyW
Uh,
Mark,
It was not Masters who said that. It was polipundit. If you go to the actual article that quotes masters you will see he never said anything like that
You can’t even read apparently so know what quote is from who.
Andy
I must say it is stuff like this that really warm my heart.
Someone posts a clearly totally bogus easily demonstrable piece of garbage, and yet the faithful rally round to protect it. Something that has nothing to do with disputed facts or assumptions or anything that would have any possibility of disagreement, and yet it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone except Andy to point out the blatant ridiculousness of the thing.
Kudos to your dogged persistence.
TonyD:
You are still FOS!
Here is what the original article said: Quote
“he theory seems counterintuitive, but as Jeff Masters, a meteorologist who writes the great Wunder Blog at Weather Underground, put it in a recent post, it makes sense: “This pattern is kind of like leaving the refrigerator door ajar — the refrigerator warms up, but all the cold air spills out into the house.” The planet overall is still warming — and the Arctic fastest of all — but the cold air from the far north can result in biting winter weather and major storms, for a while at least.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2039777,00.html#ixzz19VpRI6IT
It even inserted the link for me!
Except with any refrigeration unit more heat is produced than is removed from a closed space such as a refrigerator so the entire house would warm rather than any cold being noticed. I guess you have to know something about heat pumps to understand.
Counter intuitive is not the right term to use when describing this so called effect. Ignorance is a better fit.
The result of Jeff Masters scenario would be a minor cooling very close to the refrigerator while the refrigerator reaches room temperature and the end result in a matter of hours would be a warmer room.
What is being experienced is a natural shift in the Arctic oscillation along with a change in the PDO as well as less energy being received from the sun plus a few other forcings that are also not well understood. Rather than say they were wrong before they continue to make stuff up to cover their asses!
Real life experience regarding this:
My brother bought a window air conditioner to cool his office. He brought it over to me when he realized it needed to be in a window because the end result of running it in a closed area was to warm the room rather than cool it. He thought a room air conditioner would draw less energy than a larger unit.
Mike,
as I said the analogy is not terribly accurate, and you point out exactly why. I am sure Masters would agree with the limitation you describe, which is exactly what I described as well
I am not talking about whatever the reality of the arctic warming, sub arctic cooling or whatever you want to call it. I am not making any claims about whether Masters is right or wrong. I am ONLY talking about what this posts claim.
the point is ANYONE who knows anything about thermodynamics knows an open refrigerator causes a net heat increase throughout the entire system, which is why you keep refrigerators closed and air conditioners in the window. I am quite sure Masters knows this, and there is NOTHING in Masters quote ( I looked in the actual article where he said this) that in ANY way indicates he does NOT know it). Nothing in your quote either. Polipundit is just making it up.
You may be right that Masters science is totally wrong, but if you don’t agree that Polipundit’s conclusion is totally untenable, you are exhibiting the kind of blind obedience to group loyalty that some here so often falsely accuse me of.
the article that Masters posted clearly shows that he is not a scientific illiterate, and to accuse him of such basic ignorance from that quote is just baseless propaganda, nothing more.
TonyD:
I quoted the claim by Masters and he is displaying ignorance with claiming overall warming causes extreme cooling in the Northern hemisphere. He would have displayed more intelligence by remaining quiet rather than attempting to defend the alarmist position. You would also display your ability to understand what is being discussed by learning to remain quiet.
Quote:
“I must say it is stuff like this that really warm my heart.
Someone posts a clearly totally bogus easily demonstrable piece of garbage, and yet the faithful rally round to protect it. Something that has nothing to do with disputed facts or assumptions or anything that would have any possibility of disagreement, and yet it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone except Andy to point out the blatant ridiculousness of the thing.”
I at first you were talking about the obvious garbage that issued from Masters! I found out you were talking about your self!
I think we desparately need a posting that lists all the projections from 3 to 5 years ago by “experts” like Jeff Masters that claimed a warming, ice free arctic would result in milder, less snowy winters in the Northern Hemisphere. Then, we could use these earlier projections to refute these very same “experts” when they now claim that the cold we are witnessing is the result of less ice in the arctic.
Oh, and please don’t tell me these revisions are how good scientific research is conducted because remember the “science was settled”.
Mohatbos,
are you willing to admit that this post is totally irrefutably completely without any possibility of wiggle room flat out wrong in the conclusion?
As for the science being settled, show me any climate science who said that every aspect of ACC was perfectly understood, and there would be no changes in any of the particulars.
the science being settled ONLY referred to the question of CO2 being the main forcing agent of current global temp increases. That being said this is clearly a problem and there needs to be a consistent explanation that is verifiable.
You guys REALLY have to learn about Quine regarding falsification.
and interestingly the instance often brought up here of Wegener is instructive. His explanation for how continental drift theory occurred were demonstrably false, but his theory turned out to be correct.
Of course scientists being wrong about an aspect of a theory does increase doubt, but in no way does that by itself invalidate the theory.
And if people here blindly support as demonstrably false a post as this, it is hard to imagine that they are terribly interested in anything other than supporting their view at all costs. ESPECIALLY since being wrong has nothing to do without the science in this case.
TonyD:
Your claim the science being settled is that CO2 emitted by humans is the main driver of the climate is the main point of disagreement. Historical records and current weather patterns along with the models themselves falsify that claim.
No one is blindly supporting this post but providing evidence from personal experiences that the post is correct. The blind support seems to be coming from you.
It’s hard to believe that people are burning so many bits over what amounts to a really crappy analogy. What Masters said, according to the Time article that lies at the origin of this post (Time, people! It’s hardly a reputable source!) was this:
“This pattern is kind of like leaving the refrigerator door ajar — the refrigerator warms up, but all the cold air spills out into the house.”
(http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2039777,00.html#ixzz19Wi440HA)
That’s a remarkably stupid analogy, at least for anyone who claims to be scientist. A refrigerator is a Carnot heat pump that moves energy from one place (inside the fridge) to another place (outside the fridge). As innumerable commenters on this thread have pointed out, the laws of thermodynamics prohibit breaking even, so the movement of energy from inside to outside consumes energy too. He=Hi+Hc where the heat produced by the machine equals the heat moved out of the interior plus the heat produced in doing so. Masters’ analogy works for a single snapshot in time – the moment the fridge door is opened – and assumes that the fridge is shut off immediately thereafter. If the door is left open and the fridge is still running, though, then the system will warm up because the heat pump is both moving AND consuming energy.
The reason the analogy is stupid is because the Earth isn’t a fridge. The arctic isn’t an insulated cold box, the tropics aren’t a heat sink, the atmosphere isn’t a reversing valve and the Sun isn’t a scroll compressor. Global climate is complex non-linear interdependent dynamic system where most of the interactions aren’t understood with sufficient confidence to be able to model them anywhere near as reliably as we model the performance of a heat engine (and as an employee of a company that sells and installs geothermal heat pumps, let me assure you that modelling the performance of the thermal properties of a house, a heat pump, and whatever heat source/sink you may be using is a science that is VERY well understood – if it wasn’t we would be out of business).
Our lack of understanding of the climate system is illustrated by the fact (yes, FACT, check IPCC AR4, Report of Working Group 1) that IPCC models completely failed to predict the lack of warming experienced over the past 10-12 years despite the inexorable rise in atmospheric CO2 concentrations (NASA GISS’s ongoing attempts to make the data fit the models notwithstanding). All of the models predicted increasing temperatures; none predicted stagnation, let alone cooling (which, contrary to warmist bleats, is what all temperature datasets except NASA GISS show).
The models are demonstrably inaccurate. A large part of the reason is that the Earth isn’t a fridge, so we can’t model it like one. Folks like Masters should know better.
The fundamental idiocy of Jeff Master’s analogy –since, in fairness, he makes no claim about the long-term temperature of the whole house– is that he seems to think cold air’s greater density/weight than warm air will cause it to “sink” “down” from North to South, as it does from the height of a refrigerator to the floor.
Jeff: denser air sinks toward the center of the Earth, not toward the “bottom” of a globe!
You mean to say all those people on Australia are not in danger of falling off the planet? 😉 Here I thought that was why Antarctica was soooo much colder than the rest of the planet!
and he also thinks the warm air, being lighter, will rise up to the North Pole.
Use to be the norm for local stations to hire playboy bunnies to do the weather. .
I like to mock those nitwit AGW cultists as much as anyone but I think we should hold our fire JMasters. His gaffe has a certain amount of plausible deniability and he should get the benefit of the doubt. However, with all the character assassination that AGW cultists have engaged in the media, I can understand the desire to “fight fire with fire”. I love Marc Morano’s webpage and his mocking style of warmists but sometimes he goes a bit far. I’ve been nailed by warmists in a few debates using Morano links thinking the information had been vetted only to find out otherwise. I still visit Morano’s site everyday but I now exercise more discretion on what Morano material I use in debates with the AGW cultists…
Felix,
Thank you. You at least are exercising some caution, although I don’t think Masters quote needs any deniability at all, as i think i explained the actual issue rather completely. I understand the desire to protect yourself from people on this site who cannot tolerate any dissent.
TonyD:
You do not get the fact that you are only digging the hole deeper!
Mike,
please explain to me what is wrong with my analysis.
Since polipundit doesn’t mention anything other than the refrigerator, I am intently awaiting your setting me straight.
TonyD:
This is just an example of one promoter of the Church of AGW making stupid claims and being called on it. You are trying to make a federal case out of it. That puts you in the same league with Masters.
So, by the same faulty science, when I turn on a blow torch, there should be ice forming in the proximity of the flame. Funny, never experienced cold air next to a flame. Thermal radiation is not part of their science model I guess. They have no clue about the zeroth law of thermodynamics.
Ray,
NOW you understand it. You just left out one small detail. There is a refrigerator attached to the blowtorch.
I must say I am really astounded by the responses to this thread, EVERY person except Andy W is falling all over themselves avoiding the point both he and I made. Now Andy is in NO way a supporter of ACC, yet he sees the obvious.
I am fascinated that no one has actually responded to what Andy and I both posted. And we posted very clearly what is unmistakable to any rational person. This has NOTHING to do with how wrong and what an Idiot Masters is. NOTHING.
let me repeat, it has NOTHING to do with any climate issue.
Polipundit is asserting that Masters says something he never said. This has NOTHING to do with the accuracy of his analogy.
And yet everyone here is commenting as if those are the issues.
For clarities sake let me state (truthfully or not) that his understanding of climate is totally wrong. Everything he ever says about any aspect of climate is either a lie or wrong. Let me also state that the analogy of the refrigerator is a totally worthless one that has no bearing on what is really going on with the climate. he is a charlatan and a fake and every utterance from his mouth is evil.
Are we all on the same page now?
Now go read the post again. Then read Andy’s comment and my comment, and try to explain to me HOW polipundit determined that Masters believes that the refrigerator WON’T cause a net heating of the house? There is NOTHING in the post, NOTHING in Masters words that give ANY indication of that. The idea that Masters knows nothing of thermodynamics, and what we are talking about here is the MOST basic illustration of thermodynamics that anyone who remembers anything about high school physics would understand, is absolutely ludicrous. It requires no understanding of math, no complicated concepts.
So let’s look at this step by step.
1. Masters says ” This pattern is kind of like leaving the refrigerator door ajar- the refrigerator warms up, but all the cold air spills out into the house.”
Are we agreed that a running refrigerator has colder air inside it than the house when it is turned on? Yes?. Good. Are we agreed that opening a refrigerator door allows some of that cooler air to “spill” into the house? Remember there are no force fields, and no Maxwells demons, no nano-thermo-guardians shepherding the molecules. Good so far? Is there ANY misunderstanding of thermodynamics that can be taken from this statement?… No. It says nothing about system boundaries, it is an open ended statement and completely accurate.
2. Polipundit says “…leaving the refrigerator door open will actually WARM your house, not cool it” This statement does implicitly establish system boundaries. It says there is a closed system of the house, and that running a refrigerator (with the door open or closed, it really does not matter) causes the house to get warmer.
3. Both Masters statement and Polipundits statement are completely accurate, and they are not mutually exclusive. Since the refrigerator has cold air inside it, opening the door allows that cold air to go into the house. the area around the door WILL be colder than when the door is closed. Since the refrigerator is in a house as a closed system, the energy used to produce the cold air results in more heat than the cold that is produced, and the entire house will warm.
4. Masters statement gives no indication one way or the other about the total system thermodynamics. In reading the entire post on wunderground, he never says anything more about this analogy, so polipundit can ONLY make statements based on this exact quote.
5.Polipunidt then says “…leave the door open and it will basically act like a room heater”. and then goes into his explanation of thermodynamics which is all basically correct.*
6. Polipundit then says “more proof that global warming is more religion than science, and its adherents are scientific illiterates.”
7. I see two likely possibilities, though there are more. One – Polipundit is a scientific illiterate and doesn’t understand that one needs to define a system before making conclusions about the energy of the system. Two – he understands full well what was written and is counting on people not thinking through the validity of his flawed analysis, so he could score points with people who accept his views uncritically. If the first it shows arrogance and ignorance and is just wrong and insulting. If the second case, it constitutes blatant propaganda, and is an outright lie.
I guess a third possibility is that he did not really pay attention writing this post, and he was just lazy.
You can be right about everything else, but if you don’t repudiate thinking like this, it hurts your cause, and will make it much harder for anyone to take you seriously
*Of course he is not completely accurate. this is totally peripheral to the question at hand, but it will act as BOTH a room heater and a room cooler. the total system will always get warmer over time, BUT the area around the door will ALWAYS be cooler than the rest of the room, no matter how hot the room gets, since it is always producing cold air.
CORRECTION,
on 3. I should have written “the area around the door WILL be colder than when the door is OPEN. ”
Hope that didn’t caused any confusion.
Take a class in mechanical engineering and come back and explain it to us again.
Better yet apply for a grant to study the effects of your hypothesis and we can all read the results when you have it published.
Global warming cultism that you belong to is more a religion than a science as it follows the absolute definition of Pathological Science in every practice.
Mike,
Is there some reason that you can’t respond to what I actually wrote? it is very simple really. The post is ONLY about the thermodynamics of refrigerators, and his conclusion about Masters statement has no basis in reality. If I am wrong in my analysis please point it out. I very carefully sorted the issues out for you.
What it looks like is that you cannot , like Steve and Amino, ever admit that you or someone whose ideas you support can be wrong, or guilty of, what in this case is, likely flat out propaganda. And THAT is a sure sign of pathology
believe me Mike you have NO clue what my beliefs are about ACC, because you have no clue what the basis for my beliefs are. Accusing me of belonging to the global warming cult has no effect on me. It just creates this false dichotomy that I am your enemy and you have to defeat me. it may make you feel in control but it doesn’t intimidate me at all, because i don’t care if I am wrong. If someone points something out to me where I am wrong, it just means I learn something new and can understand it better.
TonyD:
Since I have been on this site you have been shown where you are wrong many times and yet you continue to carry on claiming you do not get the response you asked for. Masters statement has no basis in reality and it needed to be promoted just like those from the rest of the Puppets. If you do not support ACC, you sure make it appear as if you do and appear to be here just to disrupt the conversations with BS comments like you are doing on this thread!
I am not proposing a scientific theory but as with my past employment I am pointing out the failings in the so called theory of AGW or Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change by referring to natural forces that have been the primary driving force for climate since there was a climate on this planet.
Masters made a stupid claim in a major news source as an Expert and that makes him fair game just like Al Gore and James Hansen. Phil Jones made himself a target also.
TonyD – Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Very interesting!
Discussing the issue with those true non-believers who do not understand the difference between weather and climate must be frustrating. Retreating glaciers, shrinking polar ice packs and so forth have a hard time penetrating the chatter generated by energy industry flacks and their witting or unwitting dupes.
As I understand it, the prediction was for extremes of weather with an over all warming trend. QED.
When you are discussing facts it must be annoying to be accused of cultism. Keep up the fight!
Except for the fact that the polar ice caps aren’t shrinking.
Mount Shasta, which is home to the only noteworthy glacier field in my state, has continued to grow throughout the “global warming” years.
Which is the exact reason none of the warmers, crooks, and frauds, that infest my state government and the carbon con industry, will ever mention it.
Besides, since temperate glaciers all depend on a mountain to provide the constant cold, glaciers’ growth or lack there of are a function of precipitation, rather then some imagined half degree temperature wiggle.
Grimaldi, a person purporting to be dealing in facts should have known these things. Why didn’t you?
This is just all BS. Rather than talk about important matters (like just HOW we should adapt to the temperature changes), all we ever talk about is how stupid the other guy is. Sure makes me feel good, though. While we are all under water, we point to the other guy and say “it’s all your fault”. I, for one, am waiting to see the sea level rise to the point I need to do something! In the meantime, I’m busy shovelling the snow off my sidewalk.
Tony:
You have made it plain that you believe in ACC and that your primary reason for being here is to disrupt the conversations. If those are misunderstood then you need to prove something different.
Mike,
How many times can you totally ignore what I am commenting on?
if the post had been about how Masters explanation of cold weather in Europe was totally bogus this conversation would not be occurring. That you keep bringing that up has nothing to do with this post or my comments on it.
Show me where I have in ANY post made it plain I believe in ACC. I have certainly objected to the characterizations of climate scientists motivations, since I know some and I trust my assessment of the actual people rather than ideological judgements form people who do NOT know them. I have certainly contested information that I think is inaccurate or incomplete. Mostly what I have done is accepted assertions by people here and made the totally logical conclusion that there must be a huge conscious deliberate conspiracy, and that if it is the case, it has to disintegrate rather quickly and with great fanfare.
I have pointed out logical analogies that are flawed, and I have presented arguments that supporters of ACC use when I think they are relevant. I have also come down hard on issues like this one where I absolutely know what I am talking about and no one will engage what I am actually talking about. Those things in no way indicate I support ACC, but you can assume I do if that is what you want to believe.
I have on a number of occasions offered to discuss issues regarding my beliefs and no one has ever expressed any interest. Particularly regarding Feynman’s views in that ridiculous argument with Amino, but I don’t really care. I learn stuff on this site, either from people like you who do have a lot of relevant information, or by looking up things on other sites.
I am sorry if you consider those things disruptive. I personally don’t think disruption is always a bad thing, and I don’t think that the disruption is mostly due to the content of my comments. Certainly in this case it isn’t.
Have you seen one of the comments on that polipundit blog in reply
“December 29th, 2010 at 4:31 am
They are morons Poli. They are the same “useful idiots” that believe(d) in Communism.”
I think that was in reply to me saying he was talking bollocks. You can just imagine the thought processes can’t you, “What else don’t I like, oh yes, communism, so I will associate them with that.”
Deary me.
Andy
Tony Duncan says:
December 29, 2010 at 1:57 pm
“I must say it is stuff like this that really warm my heart”
Somebody must have left the fridge door open.
The air “spills” out on the floor because of gravity. Turn the fridge on it’s back and the cold air stays inside. Overtime, the air temperature averages out. The air temperature in the fridge goes up and goes slightly down in the rest of the house (it’s a thermodynamic thing). This is a gradual process which would emanate from all directions of the fridge (again assuming the fridge is in a house with a floor in the shape of a globe).
I don’t think the cold air moves from the north because of gravity. Then again maybe it does because, according to Jeff Masters logic, that would explain why the ice cover at the south pole is getting larger.
I appreciate Jeff Masters is attempting to “dumb” it down for the rest of us poor pedestrians but maybe he could find a better analogy to make his point. One which would explain why the north pole is ever so slightly warmer (according to his chosen data set) and the south pole isn’t. In which case, he still doesn’t make sense, the warm air would rise and the cold air would follow (to fill the gap) etc etc keeping in mind the earth is a big place and the pull of gravity is toward the core not toward the South Pole.
Scott said
“The air “spills” out on the floor because of gravity. Turn the fridge on it’s back and the cold air stays inside.”
If you turn the fridge upside down, I guess that is what you actually mean, then it still falls out Scott. Cold air is more dense after all.
Jeff Masters point still stands valid even after all these Homer Simpson and Peter Griffin type posts on here trying to prove otherwise.
DOH!
Andy
This world-wide temperature average is interesting, but not too useful. I want to know how to respond RIGHT NOW. What should I do, RIGHT NOW. It is apparent to me that you folks are more interested in the shape and location of some refrigerator somewhere. I’m in the same house, but I am on the sun porch growing tomatoes. Seems they are bigger this year than last, and very tasty! Global Warming? What Global Warming! Oh, yeah, 1.7 degrees F in the last 100 years. I’m glad those scientists have figured that out because no one can feel it. It’s like those frogs in the water getting hotter all the time until it is too late.
Well, I live inland and have just started to hate the Winters, in my old age. I welcome Global Warming! But, I read in the newspaper (remember those?) that atmospheric CO2 is on the rise. Hey, just maybe there are too many cows – and they are farting so much that the temps are going up (you see, the problem is with methane, not CO2). Do not worry, the EPA will pass a law that will contain the problem.
Thank GOD for government. Without that we would all be up a creek.
Nope, I am a survivor. Allow me to take action on my own and I’ll be fine! I grew up to close doors on my own. Now, shut that refrigerator!
Remember back when USATODAY would add up the temp readings from several selected cities then present the number as the “national heat index”?
“Todays national heat index is 784.” they would say. Do they still do that?
Totally useless figure. Your mentioning the global average temp reminded me of it
Awe shucks, look like a polupiundit is not longer on the air, maybe his mumsy wumsy made him go to bed 😉
Andy