If you turn on the heat in your electric car, you probably won’t make it home. Might as well take a bicycle like I do.
Cold weather kills electric car range | MNN – Mother Nature Network
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I once designed a cold weather battery that maintained performance in cold weather. I never built that battery (actually cell in the terminology of electrochemistry) because I could not afford the precious metals to be used in its construction.
Some manufacturers are seriously considering fitting bidirectional power inverters, to allow the car’s battery to be used to produce AC during power outages. One Prius owner already did something similar http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/01/04/ice_storm_2013_toyota_prius_powers_thornhill_mans_home.html
The usual problem for electric cars is that they cannot be charged with as much energy when they’re cold, so to negate that some DIY EV builders install pack heaters.Some manufacturers are also doing it now too.
Electric drive is still a good idea for many good engineering reasons, simplicity, efficiency etc…..that other electricity sources are being continuously developed
http://www.intelligentliving.co/salt-water-powered-car-gets-european-approval/
(Although it says ‘salt water’ it really means ionic salts….but you can simple refill with electrolytes to continue on your journey with something like this, providing the convenience of gas staion-like refill convenience
So, are the pack heaters electric or do you install a bunch of Jon-E or Zippo hand warmers and run them on white gas? If they’re electric do they have a net increase in output or do you end up in the same place energy wise.
I’ve got a great idea. Why don’t you invent a vehicle that uses stored solar and geothermal energy in a solid or liquid form? If you pick the right fluid it could have a wide temperature range and store a lot of energy. Something like a base of C8H18 and an engine that could release the 42 MJ/kg in a controlled way. That might be a better alternative in cold climates or for reasonable distances, heavy loads, ease of use, no charging required. It sounds ideal to me. Keep the electric as a small site vehicle (I have 2 electric carts) where constant starting and stopping are hard on the new, liquid fueled engine.
Do I need to add the </sarc> tag?
I WIN!!!
ELECTRIC CARS… just think of the energy loss:
Mine metals (Energy loss)
smelt metals (energy loss)
Transport raw materials (energy loss)
Manufacture battery, car, charger, Wind turbine or Solar panel (energy loss)
Transport Turbine or panel (energy loss)
convert solar ===> electric (max 40%) Solar converted to electric via Wind is even worse.
Transmission lines (energy loss)
charging characteristics of charger (energy loss)
Coulombic Efficiency of battery (0.60 to 0.85 – 0.95 under ideal conditions.)
Pony/horse born on property eats grass grown on property. If I ride I can use the leather (brain tanned) from my sheep/goats for a bridle and bareback pad. Wooden bit or bosal for control, wooden stirrups…
Heck I can use goats or sheep or oxen which are much more efficient hayburners.
http://horseandman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/RGPS_TR___Friends.jpg
(and yes I have ridden a longhorn, hubby has ridden one of our sheep and our donkey.)
http://horseandman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Screen-Shot-2014-07-20-at-2.59.18-PM.png
But I have not ridden a short horn.
No, she wins. These are some legs:
https://coloradowellington.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/woman-riding-ostrich.jpg
Those are really nasty birds. they can disembowel you with a kick of those legs….
Are you sure those are not her legs? Look at these emu riders in Devon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENeXKbV_b7w
Good job you still have horses and not cars…do you know how much metal is in the engine, the exhaust, the catalytic converter ? (and so on…)
At least horses only need steel shoes….replaced every, what, 100 miles ? That’s actually more metal than an electric car uses
Not to mention that Coal is the largest single source of electic power generation in the US. These Electric cars are effectively coal powered cars. The carbon is simply generated further up stream.
Coal is the largest single source of electricity in the UK too, Bob, but we can’t say the cars are effectively coal powered.
We only get 35% of electricity from coal. It is the largest contributor, but it’s a long way off being enough to say electric cars are coal powered.
The US mix is …oh wait a minute, it is only 48%, with a target of 21% coal by 2035.
It’s a long way from saying the electric cars are coal powered…..
Point taken; However, unless we are building a lot of new nuclear power plants, the fact remains that these “zero emission” vehicles are still responsible for a heck of a lot of emissions.
Bob, the real problem is if electric cars become a major part of the fleet you are adding a huge burden at the same time you are dismantling the electric generating capacity.
The real reason for the push for electric cars is to get you to pay for the batteries that the electric companies want to use to store their erratic power. (It also lets them control your travel more easily.)
“fact remains that these “zero emission” vehicles are still responsible for a heck of a lot of emissions.”
Yes, but still considerably less than a petrol car (assuming your concern is emmissions)
The energy efficiency from using a generator or turbine running at peak efficiency, in the manner which they’e operated at the power station, is always going to be better than using an internal combustion energy in a less efficient way when driving a road vehicle directly.
Gail said “Bob, the real problem is if electric cars become a major part of the fleet you are adding a huge burden at the same time you are dismantling the electric generating capacity”
Most electric car owners are expected to charge their vehicles at night. I only have he UK figures to hand, so using them in this example…
Peak demand = 60GW, at around lunchtime and 17:30hrs
Off Peak demand = 15GW, after 10pm and steady through the night
The grid is capable of supplying 60GW, but during the night when most charging will be done the demand is about 25% of peak.
There can be very little argument that night time charging will add any burden to the existing grid.
More and more people are doing this (see video) and clearly, they are ‘adding a huge burden’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yvBtccWnp4 😉
I have a 200Amp supply to my house and intend to use it for the things I choose, thanks
You are both conflating COAL = CO2.
However if you are talking CO2 producing energy generation it is 68.9%</b. and with one third of the Nuclear fleet possibly closing down that could become as much as 75.4%. (Dams are also being torn out)
http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/IER-Grid-Project-Electricity-Generation-20131.png
I just want to point out Gail, that when I presented you with the same energy mix chart a number of weeks ago you declared it to be wrong and inaccurate
You seem to agree that it is now accurate, so will you also accept that the UK energy mix contained 18% wind when you declared that to be incorrect also ?
My V8 Silverado never runs out of power either.
The wheel doesn’t need to be re-invented, despite the squealing of human-hating earth worshipping greenies.
Groupthink prevents advancement in engineering, as well as in science.
Society must find a way to regain the freedoms we lost during unreported events in AUG-SEPT 1945, just prior to the formation of the UN in OCT 1945.
http://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/thumbs-up-300×199.jpg
Best thing you ever said.
The citizens of the USA are now busy trying to figure out how best to get back to the 1600s. It is a real race back to a life that is Nasty, Brutal and Short.
Whatever happen for the Skies the Limit… Reach for the stars.
Slaves keep their eyes lowered to the earth and that is what we are becoming.
Steven, if you don’t make regular trips to Whole Foods (or other food distribution point) then yes, your bike will run out of power.
Plus you have to keep the engine idling for long periods of time between uses.
That’s what caused farmers to switch from horses to tractors.
I have seen studies showing that riding your bike has a larger carbon footprint than taking your car to the market. My nearest market is 16 miles away, and I don’t have that kind of carrying capacity for a weekly trip to town.
I have gone to the mall for shopping on horseback.
Imagine me surprised. 😉
I converted one of these from horse shafts to a pony pole for two ponies. It seats two and carries purchases in the back and is very very light weight.
http://www.cbc.ca/daybreaknorth/buggy.jpg
I have one of these for large ponies/horses:
http://www.caaonline.com/seabrook/wagonette.jpg
one of these, mine is a full cut under and top can be removed. Takes one horse or a pair
http://www.bowmancarriage.com/web_images/fringe_top_surrey.jpg
one of these:
http://www.popsarsi.net/images/gallery_governess03.jpg
one of these:
http://www.runningbrookfarm.com/images/consignment/c_rdct_roy01.jpg
And several smaller pony vehicles.
What exactly is the 0-60 on those models?
https://bonkeli.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/lastcykel-och-slc3a4p-frc3a5n-movebybike.jpg
Yeah, I won’t be investing in that company.
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/nede008wito01_01/nede008wito01ill72.gif
Obama’s job creation plan
Gator, within the first few feet a quarter horse will blow away a car because they can reach top speed much much faster. Some quarter horses can go up to 55 mph and reach that speed in a stride or two.
Secretariat did 1½ miles in 2:24
For your buggy horses. Your trotters and pacers have to be able to do a MINIMUM of a two minute mile at a trot/pace. Cooler Schooner, a filly, just broke the all time record in 2013. “…opening quarter of 26.4, a half in 54.4, three-quarters in 1:23.2, and the mile in an astounding 1:51.3….” That is over 30 miles an hour in second gear….
The nice thing about the trot is you can keep it up for miles and miles and miles. In 2010 the world record was broken by an 11-year-old grey gelding Jayhal Shazal. The horse, under saddle did 160 kilometers (100 miles) in 5:45:44 or about 18 miles an hour.
The big problem with horse is they have a rotten feed to energy conversion ratio. That is why Oxen or even mules are preferred.
So the answer is never.
I can cruise at 60 for six hours, stop for 5 minutes, and do it again. And again, and again, and…
Only 6 hours? Get a bigger gas tank………. or bladder. ;-). I wonder how many bikes it would take to haul a 49,000 lb. 53′ trailer up a steep hill and it would be a hoot to see them try to stop it when they started going down the other side.
And how many others to peddle along to power the refer unit.
You know back when I was a bad ass soldier we would recharge our Ni-Cad and later on Lithium batteries http://www.milpower.co.uk/images-mb/BA3386-prc25BW.jpg for our CW radio with a generating device you would peddle. It would flat kick ones ass. One guy couldn’t do it without taking a break.
Sometimes it needs an expensive overall. Joints tend to wear out and into the shop it goes or you could add a fuel additive usually supplied in pill form, couple a day into the tank. Thanks to Gail, I am going to try some additives. 🙂
If all you do is commute in a city or want to pop out to the shops, they’re fine. Useful to soak up power produced overnight by the bird & bat mincing machines too.
However, there’s potentially a downside, as noted here. http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=83851
When everyone switches their kettles on for their breakfast tea or coffee, you might find that your battery’s been drained!
The battery packs are extremely dangerous in crashes as well. You can’t render them “safe” just by denying them oxygen with an extinguishing agent like you can a diesel or gasoline vehicle. The lead acid cells that I’ve got in my carts are heavy, but relatively safe compared to the lightweight LiPo cells electric cars.
+ 1
Mom had a lead acid battery explode in her car.
Neil I’ve seen several lead acid battery fires.
Don’t think you can be ignorant when caring for them, they can burn very well
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/pv_obj_cache/pv_obj_id_0C61C60CF24D8D67CBA04B8E0BFFBBA51A950600/filename/2009_Battery_Safety_Compliance_Advisory.pdf
LiPo cells are rarely used in commercial cars, LiFePO4 is much preferred (and safer than lead acid) Lithium Ion with fire retardation protection is about as safe as lead acid
Yeah, that’s what Boeing said.
It wasn’t a battery issue, but a battery management issue which caused Boeing’s problems.
Do you understand the difference between the two, Billy ?
LiFePO4 cells are very safe and stable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
It wasn’t a Hydrogen issue that destroyed the Graf Hindenburg, it was a Hydrogen management issue.
Do you understand the difference between the two, Chrisb?
It’s the same issue.
It was fire which destroyed the airship….the hydrogen had been contained quite well until it was mismananged….poorly parked…call it what you will.
Lest we forget the humble Ford Pinto and the poor petrol management emplyed in the design…
https://jamesptaylor.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-ford-pinto-and-the-price-of-life/
All of a sudden petrol is safe and lithium is not ?
And should you think car fires are a thing of the past…
· According to the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), one out of five reported fires is a car fire. In fact, 18 percent of all fires takes place on a highway or other road and involves a motor vehicle.
· Also according to the NFPA, 33 car fires are reported every hour across the country, with one person per day dying in a car fire accident in the years between 2002 and 2005.
That goes back to my comments on Duke Energy starting HERE.
Duke is the biggest suppler in the USA. The 2007 Chairman’s Letter to Stakeholders said:
Notice that Duke Is not giving the CUSTOMERS any say about becoming ” the most energy efficient in the world” they are going to MAKE them “the most energy efficient in the world.
…”
Also note that duk said in another document:
“While Duke encountered opt-out requests during the meter deployment, personal contact with individual customers, local leadership, regulatory staff, and legislative leaders, helped defuse the opt-out issue for the majority of the deployment timeframe…”
This is because they took the boiling the frog slowly route. They can truthfully say the smart meters do nothing but communicate and make finding outage problems easier. What they do not say is complete control of your home by the power company/government is waiting in the wings as the coal plants go off line thanks to the EPA.
Mean while there is the aggressive brainwashing campaign.
Energy Revolution: Our Energy Efficiency in Schools Program Educating our youth about energy conservation
…………….
You can see the conserve/recycle brainwashing has permeated the entire culture.
Plastics are a really great example. I have muck buckets I bought over twenty five years ago that I still use. They are darn near indestructible. I have new ‘recycled’ plastic muck buckets and they crack, disintegrate and self-destruct in a few years. I am lucky to go three to five years without replacing them. The handles go in six months.
Has recycling actually helped?
I’ve always contended that there is no reason whatsoever to conserve electricity, other than political. There’s just no logical or moral reason to do so. As society advances or buys more electrical stuff or just grows it’s population then the only answer is to generate more electricity to meet that growing demand.
To do anything to stifle generation is to go against what the vast majority of the people want. To do anything that increases the price is to go against what the vast majority wants.
Also, recycling as government policy should be scrapped immediately. Throw it in the ground like we’ve always done. With pit liners and modern monitoring, burying it is not a problem at all. The only problem is an emotional one, people don’t “like” dumps.
Take the emotions out of it and dumps are the ideal cost-effective way to deal with our garbage.
Once again though, the earth-worshipping liberals who control the education system have brainwashed us to think of dumps as bad for the environment and we must be bad people for using or wanting them.
I don’t think the problem is a lack of electricity either, but the limiting factor is instead the poorly managed, underfunded grid which is inadequate….but which of course, no consumer wants to put their hand in their pocket for to resolve.
My bike always has a flat tire when there is snow on the ground and I’m the one holding the ice pick.
I saw this on the news the other day http://www.computerworld.com/article/2889190/toyota-begins-production-of-its-first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car.html
Mandatory sign….
http://images.mysafetysign.com/img/md/S/high-explosives-danger-sign-s-1814.png
So I see an article at Think Progress .org that lambasts hydrogen cell fuel cars and it says:
“In any case, we have this huge global warming problem going on right now. We aren’t going to go to all the trouble of creating a premium solution — zero-carbon electricity — only to throw away most of it as part of some elaborate hydrogen FCV scheme, a scheme that also requires the creation of an elaborate and expensive new system of green hydrogen production and/or delivery infrastructure. That’s particularly true when we can just run EVs on the premium carbon-free power directly (or, for that matter, simply continue to slash vehicle CO2 emissions through the straightforward continuation of fuel economy improvements).
So yes, hydrogen Is “an incredibly dumb” car fuel, especially if you are concerned about global warming.”
Zero carbon electricity? In what lifetime?
Then I read a 2013 blog post at Nature .org about getting to zero carbon electricity and it sounds like science fiction. Re-do the whole grid, have wireless chargers in the road so idling vehicles could charge their battery, work on storage for electricity, all it would take is political will. Is “political will” code for a sh1t ton of money?
Then I’m reading about lithium-ion batteries for enrgy storage but these things are 10 by 40 feet in size. So to pump out less CO2 the greens are willing to destroy nature by adding solar panels and wind turbines everywhere, and now huge batteries? Not to mention what effect on nature producing all these things takes. And then your rubber, synthetic fabrics and paddings, plastic dashboards etc., and battery production all takes evil oil to produce anyway.
I don’t get it. And I don’t want to live in a world that is covered in wind turbines, solar panels, and giant batteries dotting the landscape. I’d rather go back to caves, at least when I walk outside I’ll see nature in all her glory.
Oh, and it’s snowing again on LI.
As I said I dumped a lot of the information on this in an earlier comment this morning starting HERE.
…………..
Duke Energy Receives $22 Million Federal Grant for Wind Power Storage
So Us taxpayers forked over $22 million for these batteries and another $204 Million in 2010 for the smart grid.
Duke Energy Reaches Agreement with DOE to Accept $204 Million in Stimulus Funds to Support Grid Modernization — May 13, 2010
There is an earlier 2009 $200 Million in Stimulus Funds for the smart grid but I am not sure if it is a total of $404 million or the same $200 Million mentioned twice.
The proposed Lee Nuclear plant on the other hand has been placed on the back burner and now Duke plans to go with Natural Gas (Shell Oil anyone?)
In the mean time the USA has handed over to China our research on thorium nuclear so they can patent it.
What are you waiting for, Nancy. Go to a cave !
Bye
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vGGlODF7_RY#t=118
Do not use the heater? I might have just detected a minor bug in the design of electric cars.
When it is cold, the moisture from your breath freezes on the windscreen very quickly if the heater isn’t on and stops you from seeing where you are going.
I’d say that is a more than inconvenient.
When the temperature is really low, the problem presents itself even in cars that run on gasoline. Four years ago it was -36C and I drove 2 hours in the dark while I could only see outside from the lower third of the windscreen, with the heater full on. The rest was opaque from frozen moisture.
I wonder if you could even get an electric car to start at that temperature.
Same goes for rain storms. The last time the dash was apart the mechanic messed up my defrost. you NEED a defrost even in 85F to 95F if it is raining hard.
Your bicycle will run out of power when you do Steve. It is all well and good for you in the concentrated urban east to use self motive power For us in the mid west that do not live and work in heavily urban areas, it just won’t cut it.
I just finished using a snow blower to remove the 7+ inches of snow from my drive and I’m so thankful that I have it. It’s an hour since I finished my and the widow ladies next door drives and I would still be out there if I didn’t have that snow blower.
I think that global warming is happening, it ia a reality and sometimes, some of us are blaming the wrong factors. We plan to reduce emissions by taking bikes and by reducing energy consumption. This is in vain, as those are not the biggest factors for the global warming. As the climate is defined, it is the continuation of oceans by other means. And every definition we will find for the climate, it will be linked to the oceans (there is an entire discussion at http://www.arctic-warming.com). Having this in mind, I wonder: why do we still talk about cars? Why don’t we focus on the oceans and their functions?
I’m not too sure about links that discusses “navel” warfare…
First QUESTION: What was the role and impact of navel war on the sea ice situation in the North Atlantic in summer 1917?
http://robertblack.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/img/comic_strip/2014/navel_warfare.png
Dave says“….Why don’t we focus on the oceans and their functions?”
http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/sorce/files/2011/09/fig01.gif
Solar radiation at various ocean depths:
http://www.klimaatfraude.info/images/sverdrup.gif
A paper by Nir Shaviv examines the relationship between the variation in solar intensity (TSI) and the ocean. Figure 4, with variations in TSI and parameters relating to the ocean.***
http://klimaatfraude.info/images/tsi_ocean.jpg
At the top is the variation in TSI (thin line) together with the inverse (thick line) of the cosmic radiation. Underneath is the net heat exchange from the ocean, including sea level and finally the surface temperature. Altogether there is a clear agreement.***
http://klimaatfraude.info/images/tsi_sealevel.jpg
*** Translated from Dutch.
http://www.klimaatfraude.info/flitspost/de-invloed-van-zonne-intensiteit-op-de-oceaan_169719.html
The paper by Nir J. Shaviv Using the oceans as a calorimeter to quantify the solar radiative forcing
A discussion of the paper at ScienceBits
http://www.sciencebits.com/calorimeter
Oh with a big enough head wind after enough miles one can find himself unable to proceed forward on bicycle. I have on rare occasion. However I was able to get going again in a few seconds.
Electric cars are just for a small niche market. If we had a free market they would find their place if they could be made and then sold at a profit.