Multiyear Ice Extent up 116% Over The Past Decade

A decade after declaring the end of Arctic multi-year sea ice, it has increased 116% and now covers nearly half of the Arctic.

Multiyear Arctic ice is effectively gone: expert | Reuters

‎osisaf.met.no/p/osisaf_hlprod_qlook.php

You won’t read about this story at any of the fake news agencies like New York Times, CNN or Washington Post, because they are paid to push the global warming scam.

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137 Responses to Multiyear Ice Extent up 116% Over The Past Decade

  1. Gail Combs says:

    PAGING Jimmy the TROLL….

    PAGING Jimmy the TROLL….

    • Latitude says:

      Speaking of Jimmy…

      How do you read those “egg” circles on the Canadian Ice chart he keeps posting?
      I can’t figure that one out……

      I did find that what they call “old” ice is multiyear ice.

      • Jim Hunt says:

        Mornin’ Latitude (UTC),

        I note that you also commented over at Anthony Watts’ blog
        on the the thread in which Tommy is making scurrilous allegations about my character.

        Perhaps you would be good enough to pop in there and persuade Anthony and/or his “moderators” to publish my reply?

        Thanks in anticipation.

        • AndyG55 says:

          “is making scurrilous allegations about my character”

          If it used ordinary English, there is NO WAY it could possibly have describe the real depths of your putrid, anti-human , anti-life, sewer-like character.

        • Sunsettommy says:

          Gee I wonder why they don’t publish your comment,could it be because you got banned?

          Snicker…..

        • Sunsettommy says:

          Here it is that upsets Jimmy so much,who has a nasty habit of ignoring questions about why he ignores the ENTIRE Arctic presentation, to focus on a small region of it,then declare Tony wrong over the whole Arctic.

          That he never explains WHY he thinks the OSI data is wrong,or that ignoring the OTHER 75% of the region Tony talked about, is a credible argument against Tony’s ALL Arctic presentation.

          Jimmy has been shown over and over by a few of us here,that he is being misleading and dishonest over it.

          This was a reply to Griff at WUWT

          https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/03/14/arctic-ice-loss-driven-by-natural-swings-not-just-mankind-study/#comment-2450513

          “Griff, does that mean you can’t address Davids data based presentation?

          You babble without any evidence,just opinionated drivel is all you have. You have been told many times with published science papers, of low to no Summer Arctic ice earlier in the Inter Glacial time. You keep ignoring them plus the non disasters that didn’t happen THEN,so why you think they will happen now?

          Your ice obsession is destroying you and Jim Hunt,who was exposed as a dishonest person over his absurd cherry picking of a small area while Tony was covering the ENTIRE Arctic region. Tony just today exposed Hunts dishonesty, by showing that his small Canadian region is actually thicker than last year.

          The two of you are gaining a stellar reputation as wild eyed warmist morons,who will lie or distort the topic presented, Tony has effectively destroyed your low Arctic ice baloney, to the point that you now get derision there, since your replies are free of any science information,meaning you have no effective counterpoint to offer,just brainless opinions, nothing more.

          You have NEVER presented evidence of anything showing low ice levels is a threat to the planet,just fear mongering and obsession is all you have.”

          Now you are once again exposed,Jimmy. Go cry all you want,but it is YOU who are being dishonest on this topic here.

        • Sunsettommy says:

          Did a quick search on how reliable Jimmy is,here is a full comment exposing Jim’s attempt to lie his way with a chart that appears to be not published, Note his weak reply,indicating he has no counterpoint to defend his chart, he dishonestly posted:

          https://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/05/16/headline-indications-arctic-may-become-temperate-zone/comment-page-1/#comment-1937477

          Caleb
          May 17, 2015 at 8:55 pm

          “I do not respond to Jim Hunt AKA “Snow White” because he will not respond to courteous and polite requests that he explain where in Sam Hill he gets some of his “interesting” data. For example, last year he posted a NRL “ice thickness” map that showed significantly less ice than the NRL map of “ice thickness” posted on the WUWT Sea-Ice-Page. It eventually turned out that “Snow White’s” map was dredged from some sort of experimental model NRL was working on, which wasn’t complete, and whose maps were not intended to be used as real-time-representations of actual situations. However “Snow White” so relished all the attention he was getting that he preferred muddying-the-waters to honestly answering questions. Others had to do the work needed to arrive at the Truth.

          If you desire clarity, avoid this fellow.

          The break-up of ice floes in the Beaufort Sea is not uncommon, even in February when temperatures are at minus 40°. All that is needed is strong winds. The current creation-of-leads was caused by roaring winds between high pressure towards Alaska and a low pressure right on top of the Pole. These winds have also created a sort of polynya of open water along the arctic coast by the McKenzie River Delta, as they howl off-shore.

          The winds are fading fast, but the WUWT Beaufort-sea-ice-page still shows ice drift of more than 30 cm/s in that area. If you go to the WUWT Sea-ice-page you can scroll down to “Arctic Satellite Imagery” and then zoom in to get the view “Snow White ” posted. Though this view makes you aware of the open water between grinding floes, it doesn’t show you the pressure ridges at the edges of these floes, formed when the floes slam together. If you visit often you will notice that the open water often grows swiftly more and more milky in hue, which indicates the open water is freezing over.

          The most recently formed leads in the Beaufort Sea are not currently freezing over, as the off-shore winds are at around freezing, which is not cold enough to freeze salt water. However within the same storm at the Pole are sub-zero (sub -17° degree Celsius) temperatures, and these temperatures are freezing other leads over, even in the middle of May. (I get current polar temperatures by using the “initial” maps of various models such as the GFS or GEM, which I get from the maps produced by Dr. Ryan Maue at the Weatherbell site.)

          Another good way to get an idea of the duress the ice is under is to watch the various cameras drifting about up there. “O-Buoy 9” is currently interesting, as it shows that a lead of open water has formed right where ice is piled up and the NRL map shows ice as being ten feet thick.

          (See O-buoy 9 picture at bottom of post at: https://sunriseswansong.wordpress.com/2015/05/17/arctic-sea-ice-news-ice-under-duress/ )

          In conclusion I’d say it is a mistake to try to gauge whether the ice is increasing or decreasing by eyeballing areas of open water, or even by using “extent” graphs, especially when the PIOMAS graph shows increasing volume. Even if there is open water at the Pole this summer, and submarines can surface and take snapshots, in other areas the ice may be piled up in increasing heaps and jumbles.

          We are witnessing a change, and ice under duress, and it should be fun to just sit back and observe.”

          =====================

          Jimmy’s feeble reply:

          ” Jim Hunt
          May 18, 2015 at 8:33 am

          Caleb – What is your question exactly? Express it succinctly and I will provide an exceedingly courteous answer.”

          BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

        • Sunsettommy says:

          Now I know WHY Jimmy doesn’t comment at WUWT anymore. He was caught using multiple names/ids and damaging threads with his misleading crap,this straight from Anthony Watts himself:

          https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/02/25/dmi-apologizes-for-their-disappeared-sea-ice-graph-debacle/#comment-2153878

          “Anthony Watts
          February 26, 2016 at 9:41 am

          I don’t think Lawrence was sorry for posting that comment, not one bit, as this newer comment shows:

          And he wonders why his comments aren’t greeted with welcome arms.

          The point is that he and Jim Hunt come rolling in to threads with all sorts of accusations, derail the thread, uses alternate names/id’s, (Jim has three, Lawrence, two) then when some moderation gets applied, wails that they are being treated unfairly and make indignant posts elsewhere telling the world how terrible I am that I’m not listening to them.

          It’s like Doug Cotton all over again, only with sea ice.

          Mr Hunt recently tried to sidetrack another thread by demanding answers from Monckton, Legates, and Soon on something he posted on his blog that had nothing to do with the topic. Mr. Hunt has been warned months ago that his tactics were unwelcome, yet he continues to try to post comments under different names because he thinks he’s owed a forum here.

          I’m not obligated to open my home on the Internet to such abusive and disruptive people. If that upsets them, then it upsets them. I really don’t have time to care.”

          ==========

          There is an embedded link about Monckton,Soon,Legates, in Anthony’s comment absolutely worth reading to show what an ugly warmist TROLL,Jimmy is.

          It was the MODERATOR, who tore him apart,Priceless!!!

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Tommy – For some strange reason you have left out all my comments that ended up on Anthony’s cutting room floor. If you’re very nice to me I might show them to you one day!

            I must say you do seem to be inordinately au fait with the Watts back catalogue. You’re not actually Anthony disguised in a frilly white frock are you?

            Whether you are or not I don’t suppose you actually have any evidence for the “three alternate names/id’s” I’m alleged to have used do you?

          • Gator says:

            Apparently “Alf” is another of Genocide Jim’s nom de plume. Alf thinks genocide is great, as long as it is done in a thoughtful manner.

          • AndyG55 says:

            Poor little snow-white, LIAR in chief

            paid from the Exeter climate trough !!

            Not one tiny bone of HONESTY in his whole putrid persona.

            Now shows he is a CRY-BABY as well !!

            Poor little tape-worm.

          • Gail Combs says:

            Jimmy Boy actually thinks his honesty and integrity are equally to that of Anthony Watts???

          • Sunsettommy says:

            Ha ha,

            Jim wants to regale me with unpublished comments, while ignoring the accusations that Anthony made on you for using several identities (Which is normally enough for getting banned).

            You were also WARNED not to continue to post the way you do,in his view.

            You WERE waaay off topic when you demanded an answer From Monckton about something not on topic at all,it was YOU who started the off topic by asking Lord Monckton about Sea Ice stuff, that was not in his blog post at all:

            https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/02/10/the-profiteers-of-climate-doom/comment-page-1/#comment-2143329

            “Jim Hunt
            February 12, 2016 at 7:07 am

            A “killer question” for you Christopher.

            Were you previously aware that global sea ice area has recently reached its lowest ever level (since the Cryosphere Today satellite records began)?”

            The thread ended soon after that,due in part because YOU STARTED in the derailing of the thread to just sea ice stuff.

            That is why Anthony write this,as part of his reason for banning you:

            “Mr Hunt recently tried to sidetrack another thread by demanding answers from Monckton, Legates, and Soon on something he posted on his blog that had nothing to do with the topic….”

            and,

            “[i don’t think any of them with bother with your off-topic question. as said earlier, your entire m.o. is to launch a taunt, and it doesn’t merit a response since this isn’t any particularly noteworthy event. -mod]”

            The thread ended then.

            You are full of shit,Jim.

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Tommy – At the risk of (repeating myself)^n, n → ∞:

            Do you actually have any evidence for the “three alternate names/id’s” I’m alleged to have used?

            Whilst you’re doing your due diligence on that one why not dig out the “NRL “ice thickness” map” that allegedly offended Caleb as well?

          • Gail Combs says:

            Jimmy Boy forgets he got OUTED as also being Snow White AND ADMITTED IT!

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Snow wears her frilly white frock with pride Gail!

            http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2014/04/snow-white-is-actually-a-cowardly-cross-dresser/

            How about you? Is your name really Tommy?

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Mornin’ Tommy (UTC),

            I note that you still haven’t managed to find any actual evidence to support the scurrilous accusations against me made by the likes of Caleb and Watts.

          • AndyG55 says:

            Poor Jimbo, CAUGHT OUT and still too COWARDLY to admit it even to himself.

            You have serious mental issues, Jimbo !!!

          • Jim Hunt says:

            In actual fact Tommy has serious lack of evidence issues.

    • Latitude says:

      I had read the egg code…and that’s what confused me

      Egg says 7-, 8-, and 9- are all old multiyear ice.

      I see what looks like those numbers on Jim’s chart

      • Gail Combs says:

        Bro,
        I think I have it figured out.

        The eggs on Jimmy Boy’s chart are:
        9+ | 9+ | 9+ | 9+
        91 | 28 | 37 | 55
        1.7 | 41. | 74. | 41.
        55 | 65 | 65 | 66
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

        The first line 9+ is easy.
        TOTAL CONCENTRATION
        9+/10 total ice concentration comprised Very close pack/drift ice

        The second line is PARTIAL CONCENTRATION
        Thickest, 2nd Thickest, Third Thickest (indicated in tenths.)

        The Third line is STAGE
        New ice …. 30 centimetres ………….. 6
        Thin first-year ice …. 30 – 70 centimetres …. 7
        Medium 1st-year ice 70 – 120 centimetres .. 1•
        Thick 1st-year ice …. > 120 centimetres …..4•
        Old ice …… …… …… …… ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. 7•
        Second-year ice …. …. …. …. …. …. … ….. … 8•
        Multi-year ice …. …. …. …. …. …. ….. …. ….. 9•

        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        They have nothing labelled as second year or multi-year!
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

        Last line FORM
        Small ice cake, brash ice .. 10 kilometres …………. 7
        Fast ice …. ….. ….. ….. ….. …. …. 8
        No form …. …. …. ….. …. ….. …. X

        From
        https://ec.gc.ca/glaces-ice/default.asp?lang=En&n=2CE448E2-1&offset=8&toc=show

        • Latitude says:

          Thanks Sis!……by going back and forth between you and them….I think I got it now!

          • Gail Combs says:

            It took me a lot of reading to unravel their code.

            You think they could have explained it simply on the first page!

    • Sunsettommy says:

      Here is the PDF link to the NOAA report on Sea Ice at both Poles,it was published on March 1991:

      https://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/bams-sotc/climate-assessment-1981-1990.pdf

      Snow and Ice section starts at page 59. It is worth reading the SECOND paragraph on page 59.

      On page 61, they clearly accept the Sea Ice Data from 1973 on wards to 1990,showing charts of sea ice ANOMALY changes on a yearly basis, beginning of 1974 shows it being nearly TWO million sq, K LOWER than the peak year of 1979.

      Now they seem ignore it these days, despite that they were satisfied with the Satellite data at the time.

      • Jim Hunt says:

        Don’t you mean page 51 Tommy?

        There’s obviously something wrong with your eyesight. That graph shows a summer sea ice extent peak in 1980 ~HALF million sq km above 1974.

        FYI here’s the provisional NSIDC winter maximum trend:

        http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/02/the-2017-arctic-sea-ice-maximum-extent/#Mar-18

      • AndyG55 says:

        Empty Jimbo yaps again !!

        What does CIS say about Arctic multi-year sea ice , you cowardly, gutless, little slimebag

      • AndyG55 says:

        Empty Jimbo yaps again !!

        What does CIS say about Arctic multi-year sea ice , you cowardly, gutless, little slimebag

        Still a lonely, single, little t**d floating down the AGW sewer, aren’t you , Jimbo.

        And yes , you ignorant little twerp… we KNOW that the late 1970’s were EXTREME HIGHS of Arctic sea ice, up there with those of the Little Ice Age, coldest period in 10,000 years.

        That has been pointed out to you MANY, MANY times.

  2. gator69 says:

    Wong gwaff!

  3. CheshireRed says:

    Tony, is there any correlation at all over those last 10 years that can be shown to have driven that decade-long coverage? Ocean temps? CO2 levels? Winds? Ocean currents/cycles? Fairy dust? Anything that could be shown to account for the variations in any demonstrable way?

  4. Shooter says:

    These experts love to get ‘startled’ and ‘shocked’ don’t they? It’s as if they aren’t aware of how the Arctic operates in real time instead of their pre-programmed computer models.

  5. Jim Hunt says:

    Here you are folks. The news you’ve all been waiting for! There’s still an insignificant area of multi-year sea ice in the Beaufort Sea.

    And Tony is still peddling cherry soaked porky pies.

    Go figure!

    • AndyG55 says:

      Jimbo , you are the one LYING your a**e off.

      OSI is bound to be more accurate than CIS because they track the sea ice movement for all of the Arctic.

      Have you approached OSI and told them they are wrong ??

      Npe, you wouldn’t have the GUTS, would you.

      Tony is using ACCEPTED data for whole of Arctic. You are not.

      Russian data also shows multi-year sea ice at a 10 year maximum.

      You have NOTHING except you baseless , worthless opinion.

      What do CIS say about all of Arctic multi-year sea ice Jimbo?

      Or will you run away and avoid answering this simple question again, little yellow-backed troll.

    • AndyG55 says:

      The top section of green is marked 7.4 in the third line

      that means “Old ice …… …… …… …… ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. 7•”

      Seems CIS got their colouring-in wrong

      Wouldn’t you agree, Jimbo. !

    • AndyG55 says:

      Also, note how much more brown there is in the passages than there was last year. and the lack of “grice” that was in the 2016 chart you posted.

      2017 is obviously a more consistent solid sea ice, even in the tiny CIS area , that it was last year.

    • R. Shearer says:

      Yeah, the entire Arctic is Tony’s cherry while your white con is a spittle of pea soup dripping from your lower lip. Use a napkin please!

    • TimboA says:

      At risk of repeating myself…look real close at your chart Jim….see where it says environment and climate change Canada? What’s so funny is you are talking about “settled science”. You, Canada climate change, you are the 97%. If that were even remotely true you wouldn’t even be here because Tony’s efforts are a laughable little gnat in comparison to the behemoth monolithic bunch you are involved in, so unless you’re some sadist who enjoys kicking the “little guy” around (quite feasible come to think of it lol), then you’re here for an entirely different reason. You are genuinely threatened because you know there is huge and growing movement that not just challenges your bogus worldview, but blows it out of the water! You can post silly charts all day long from some Orwellian sounding government ministry, but everyone easily rejects your “evidence” because it is impossibly tainted. You are the “man behind the curtain”, the naked emperor. In other word’s, your game has been “up” for a long, long time. I actually pity you even though your a petty little snit (British enough for you?). Again….I so wish there was a block function here because your a hopeless troll, but it looks like you’ve achieved your lifelong goal of chief annoyer….ummm….congratulations?

      • gator69 says:

        +21,000 (today)

      • AndyG55 says:

        There is no doubt at all that Jimbo is scared s**tless about his Exeter boys’ climate funding dropping out.

        Here’s a hint Jimbo.. your LIES and DECEIT and COWARDICE will only hasten that 100% probability event. :-)

        I hope you have a nice park bench somewhere warm, Jimbo , because when the Exeter Uni and other local trough swillers’ funding dries up.

        A bench above a sewer is where you belong, Jimbo.
        Feels like home to you.

      • Colorado Wellington says:

        We used to have a guy like Jim Hunt at the Pearl Street Mall. He had issues.

    • Sunsettommy says:

      Jim,

      It is obvious that you prefer Canada’s REGIONAL ice chart,but you have never explained WHY you think OSAIF chart for the ENTIRE Arctic, is wrong.

      You ignore the Russian chart too,which broadly supports the OSAIF charts. While you continue your dishonest argument,the rest us the people here are telling others that Hunt is a distorter of the Sea ice reality.

      You have a growing reputation as a serial distorter of the evidence presented,that now invites derision.

      • Jim Hunt says:

        Mornin’ Tommy (UTC),

        I don’t ignore “the Russian Chart”. I look at lots of “graphs” on a regular basis. Please see:

        http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-graphs/

        I even have an entire section devoted solely to the Beaufort Sea:

        http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-regional-graphs/beaufort-sea-ice-graphs/

        Your eagle eyes will no doubt note that it contains a CIS stage of development map cropped to the Beaufort Sea, which I reproduce here occasionally since I can’t link to it.

        “The Russian Chart” agrees with the Canadian map which agrees with the US map which agrees with ACNFS which agrees with ASCAT that the DMI sea ice age map is “inaccurate”. All of which begs the question, and at the risk of (repeating myself)^n, n → ∞, why does Tony persist with this nonsense?

        Furthermore it has recently come to my attention that you are making scurrilous allegations about my character over at Anthony Watts’ blog. Perhaps you would be good enough to pop in there and persuade Anthony and/or his “moderators” to publish my reply?

        Thank you for your attention.

        • gator69 says:

          … why does Tony persist with this nonsense?

          Tony is not persisting with any nonsense, Tony is pointing out that there is nothing to be alarmed about. What we are seeing is perfecrtly natural and endangers nobody.

          Genocide Jim, why do you persist with this mass murder? Why do you wish to see millions starve to death? Why not admit that there is no reason to spend trillions fighting natural cycles, and instead use our resources to feed the starving?

          At the risk of repeating myself, why do you hate poor brown people?

        • AndyG55 says:

          Extent from NSIDC STILL above 2015, 16

          More multi-year sea ice than any time in last 10 years

          CIS totally unable to produce a single Arctic multi-year sea ice chart.

          Nobody can possibly make allegations about your character that go the depth of its putridity. Not in English, anyway.

          The Russians just assume the same status of old ice as the previous year, they do not account for movement.

          You are invariably proven to be LYING about everything you post on this blog or anywhere else.

          Tony only let’s you continue to post so that you can downgrade your already putrid reputation for LIES, DECEIT and MISINFORMATION and COWARDICE.

          Again.. are you going to answer the simple question.

          What to the Canadians say about whole of Artic multi-year sea ice.

          Both OSI and the Russians show it to be highest in 10 years.

          What do the Canadians say.

          Or are you going to keep RUNNING and HIDING like the slimy, nose-picking,m yellow-back troll that you are.??

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Here’s what the US Navy have to say on the matter Andy.

            Can you see lots of thick multi-year ice in the Beaufort Sea on their Arctic wide map?

            Or anywhere else for that matter?

          • gator69 says:

            Can you see lots of starving children in the in this photo Genocide Jim? Do you care enough to stop lying about climate change?

            At the risk of repeating myself, would you starve your own family Genocide jim?

          • gator69 says:

            Why do you hate poor brown people Genocide Jim?

          • AndyG55 says:

            What to the Canadians say about whole of Artic multi-year sea ice.?

            Come on you cowardly piece of human excrement !!

          • AndyG55 says:

            Doesn’t show multi-year at all does it Jimbo, only thickness.
            Not vey intelligent of you , but then what can we expect from you.

            No time to get the Exeter boys to help you.. so you have to rely on your ignorance to post anything.

            Why do you keep trying to mis-direct from answering a simple question

            You are continuing to make an ABJECT FOOL of yourself, little yellow-backed troll.

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Mornin’ Gator (UTC),

            Since you’re evidently an expert on such matters perhaps you could tell us how many deaths of “poor brown people” are attributable to fossil fuel emissions per annum?

          • AndyG55 says:

            Oh, you poor little tape worm inside a yellow-backed troll.

            Is that really the best you can do.

            Even more PATHETIC than your normal PATHETIC post.

          • gator69 says:

            Mornin’ Gator (UTC),

            Since you’re evidently an expert on such matters perhaps you could tell us how many deaths of “poor brown people” are attributable to fossil fuel emissions per annum?

            Sorry Genocide Jim, but your childish attempt to deflect from your own massive and purely evil daily carnage is about to be hammered.

            Fossil fuels save far more lives than they take. Fossil fuels have done more to save human life, and the environment, than any other efforts. If we still used trees as fuel, humans would die at an even greater rate than today, and we would have virtually no forests. If we still used whale oil, there would be no whales.

            Fossil fuels heat and cool our homes, they help us make modern medicines, and are critical in many ways to our survival.

            Even if you believe the worst case estimates of fossil fuel related deaths, it is less than 25% of your teams efforts towards starvation, alone! And I am so glad you asked me to flesh this out, as I have been waiting for months! Normally you are too much of a coward to even respond.

            FYI – I have yet to add up those that perish from disease and lack of shelter! The 7,000,000 annual deaths I have been hitting you over the head with daily does not include all the deaths for which you and your ghoulish team are responsible.

            Genocide Jim, the crap you are pushing benefits nobody but grantologists and greedy politicians. Your crap kills 21,000 innocent humans every day, with zero benefit to the planet and zero benefit to mankind.

            Thanks for acknowledging your genocide, Jim.

            Maybe you should look inward for your next Einstein Award.

          • Colorado Wellington says:

            Your persistence is paying off, gator. The jerk lost his nerve.

          • gator69 says:

            The slimy worm probably does not even realize that he once again mocked the genocide of “poor brown people”. I’m sorry for having to say this, but it’s like watching a Nazi piss on dead Jews. Leftists have absolutely no shame, and no sense of decency.

            Watch, Genocide Jim will take offense to the comparision, but will have no issues with his own evil actions or their horrific results. He will proceed full stupid ahead, and deny he has anything to do with the willful starvation of millions.

          • Colorado Wellington says:

            Having seen enough of them over the years, I don’t expect anything else from Hunt. The world doesn’t change and his kind never disappears. The only difference—a huge one—is whether the decent people can outnumber and contain them at any given time.

        • AndyG55 says:

          ““The Russian Chart” agrees with the Canadian map”

          Sorry, that yet another monumental LIE.

          The Canadian chart shows just a tiny amount of the Arctic.

          Russian chart shows whole arctic with last years sea ice as “multi-year ice” neither shows the actual reality of wind blown old ice, like OSI does.
          The Russian charts show that 2017 has the largest multi-year sea ices extent in ten years.

          Show us where the Canadian charts show anything more than a tiny fraction of the Arctic.

          They DON’T do they.

          You are yet again EXPOSED as a monumental LIAR !!

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Andy – I note that you too have commented over at Anthony Watts’ blog on the the thread in which Tommy is making scurrilous allegations about my character.

            Perhaps you would be good enough to pop in there and persuade Anthony and/or his “moderators” to publish my reply?

            Perhaps we could start a petition?

          • AndyG55 says:

            Why? We all know you are nothing but a LYING DECEITFUL , COWARDLY little tape-worn inside a yellow-backed troll.

            Nothing you have to say is worth publishing .. EVER.

          • AndyG55 says:

            Show us where the Canadian charts show anything more than a tiny fraction of the Arctic.

            Show us where Canadian ice charts show the whole of Arctic multi-year sea ice,

            Waiting for your COWARDLY, GUTLESS response, as usual.

          • AndyG55 says:

            Your “fake” support of the Exeter boys must be quite endearing to them Jimbo.

            I have figured out long ago that you are actually faking everything you say here.

            You do not actually “believe” one little scrap of it, do you.

            Fake, as well as Cowardly.

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Andy – This will obviously be of great interest to both you and Gator:

            https://youtu.be/lE7fDp3kxqo?t=14m30s

            It’s a video recording of the event I attended last week at the UK Met Office’s shiny new High Performance Computing complex just outside Exeter.

            I had a long chat with Dave Underwood afterwards, since nobody else there seemed to be particularly interested in the finer details of what the UKMO’s climate/weather model was capable of at 16 petaFLOPS and counting.

            Sadly the live video feed had been turned off by then.

          • Gail Combs says:

            You are right AndyG all Jimmy Boy does is TRY to spread FAKED information from FAKE scientists.

            What Tony Heller does is point out just how fake the information is.

          • AndyG55 says:

            I am not in the least bit interested in how you scam your putrid little anti-human lifem, Jimbo

            I am interesting in getting you to once, JUST ONCE telling the truth to yourself and to everyone else.

            But you are a fake-person , Jimbo, an empty waste of space, unsupportable arrogance and undeniable ignorance rolled into one fetid empty non-entity.

          • AndyG55 says:

            “High Performance Computing”

            GIGO..

            … just a lot faster.

            Pity they don’t have one person with any INTEGRITY or REAL SCIENCE in their bones to drive the thing,.

            Wouldn’t you agree , Jimbo.

          • Gail Combs says:

            Jimmy Boy says: …the UK Met Office’s shiny new High Performance Computing complex just outside Exeter.

            I had a long chat with Dave Underwood afterwards, since nobody else there seemed to be particularly interested in the finer details of what the UKMO’s climate/weather model was capable of at 16 petaFLOPS and counting….
            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

            And you know as well as we do Jimmy Boy, that the new Computing complex is a COLOSSAL waste of time and money just so a bunch of FAKE scientists can continue spewing FAKE DATA.

            It is ALL political and it is ALL about bleeding the sheeple of even more money. WORSE it is about using FAKED information to control people.

            Even the IPCC admits the models aren’t worth spit.

            …in climate research and modeling we should recognise that we are dealing with a complex non linear chaotic signature and therefore that long-term prediction of future climatic states is not possible

            IPCC 2001 section 4.2.2.2 page 774

          • AndyG55 says:

            You have to remember Gail, that Jimbo has basically zero understanding of the working of computer programming .

            He is just interested in the huge waste of money that could have been spent helping people out of energy poverty.

            Anything for the “cause” right Jimbo.

            I really hope the hardship you wish on others, comes to you soon , rodent !!

          • Gail Combs says:

            That complex was estimated in 2014 to cost £97 million

            Think what that £97 million could do for the people of the UK if it was put towards building a coal fired or nuclear power station instead!

            Instead that £97 million is completely wasted on a Met project when the Met office forecasts are a running joke in the UK because they are driven by a FAKE narrative and not by actual science.

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Andy – I started programming computers at school.

            In those days there were no computers in schools, so we had to build one first.

            I taught myself ALGOL and FORTRAN from a book, since the computer we built didn’t understand ALGOL or FORTRAN!

          • AndyG55 says:

            So Jimbo should understand “GIGO” !

            right Jimbo !!

            Why is it you ALWAYS insist on the “GO” part in all your posts?

            And WHY are you still refusing to answer simple questions.

            What do the Canadians say about whole of Arctic multi years sea ice?

            Stop being such a gutless coward and answer.

            Oh and NSIDC daily now shows sea ice above the level of 2006, 2015 and 2016.

        • Sunsettommy says:

          At least you make a decent reply,but you still fail to show WHY you think DMI is wrong.

          If you were banned at WUWT, then he had a good reason, since he allows a lot of diverse thinking,as long as they are credible and doesn’t promote highly disruptive trolling commentary. But at least you do put up your name with your words, I give you kudos for that.

          Meanwhile do you realize that you imply that many nations interpretation of the sea ice data are wrong. It will be interesting if you can make a case of many organizations being wrong.

          OSI are composed of the following consortium:

          Met Norway
          DMI
          NMI
          KNMI
          I Fremer
          Metro France
          Eu Met Stat

          http://www.osi-saf.org/voir_page_statique.php?page=visiteurs/liens_utiles.ihtml&nav=Related_Links&safosi_session_id=d3365984d2c21d8cb89993b461836f04

          Good luck Jimmy, oh by the way why are you still ignoring about 75% of Tony’s sea ice chart?

          Why are you still ignoring this statement he makes ?

          “A decade after declaring the end of Arctic multi-year sea ice, it has increased 116% and now covers nearly half of the Arctic.”

          You have yet to address it. You just wallow over a small region,then irrationally call him wrong over the rest of the Arctic region. Tony presented that chart BASED on the OSI website,which he has provided over and over,yet you ignore it.

          This is why many think you are a dishonest troller.

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Tommy,

            At the risk of (repeating myself)^n, n → ∞

            “The Russian Chart” agrees with the Canadian map which agrees with the US map which agrees with ACNFS which agrees with ASCAT that the sea ice age map that Tony keeps displaying with monotonous regularity is “inaccurate”.

            Getting back to events at WUWT for a moment, do you think that it’s perfectly acceptable for you to, as Alf put it the other day, hurl “insults bordering on libel” at me without Anthony providing me with any right of reply?

          • Sunsettommy says:

            Jimmy as usual dodged yet ANOTHER couple questions I ask you:

            “Good luck Jimmy, oh by the way why are you still ignoring about 75% of Tony’s sea ice chart?

            Why are you still ignoring this statement he makes ?”

            Meanwhile he shows his typical misleading dishonesty clearly shown here:

            “The Russian Chart” agrees with the Canadian map which agrees with the US map which agrees with ACNFS which agrees with ASCAT that the sea ice age map that Tony keeps displaying with monotonous regularity is “inaccurate”.

            The Russian Chart covers the ENTIRE Arctic,showing that awful 10 year high of multi year ice on it. You have yet to show this as being wrong.

            The OSI chart covers the same TEN YEAR HIGH of multi year ice on it,using the ENTIRE Arctic region. You have yet to show this as being wrong.

            YOU use just a single days data point of this year,to make your absurd claim that Tony is wrong about his blog post of a TEN YEAR period,based on the ENTIRE Arctic region.

            Your favored Canadian sea ice chart, is a small region of the Arctic,which doesn’t even address what Tony and Andy has been pointing out. Multi year ice of the ENTIRE Arctic is at a TEN YEAR HIGH,from year 2008.

            His TEN years,covering the Entire Arctic, against a your SINGLE DAY data point, of a small region………..

            You are so insanely wrong, it is hilarious that you keep at it in front of the world.

            Your libel whine is funny since I have repeatedly showed that you make OBVIOUS misleading comments, that becomes dishonest in repeating them, long after it was shown that you ignored most of Tony’s points completely.

            You center on a small region of the Arctic, over and over while ignoring the entire arctic region Tony keep talking about,that doesn’t even show that Tony is wrong anyway. Since the topic is about the ENTIRE Arctic ice pack as whole,not your cherrypicked small area along the Canadian coastal region.

            You have convinced me that you are here to create fog by your chronically misleading babble,nothing more.

            My beef with you here is that you continually play your (Tony is wrong, babble over a small area,but completely silent on his claim over the entire Arctic). It is a dishonest attempt to say Tony is wrong without actually addressing his Entire Arctic presentation,which is about a TEN year period covering the ENTIRE Arctic region.

            That is why I keep saying you are misleading and dishonest. That you are a warmist TROLL.

          • Gail Combs says:

            Tommy,
            Jimmy Boy is the King of Straw Men Arguments. They are all he has since the evidence does not support him.

          • Sunsettommy says:

            Gail, found out WHY Jimmy was banned at WUWT,read my two comments starting with this one:

            https://realclimatescience.com/2017/03/multiyear-ice-extent-up-116-over-the-past-decade/#comment-44840

            First one shows him being exposed of posting a sea ice chart that was never published and conflicts with the one that was published significantly,despite that it came from the same place that made them.

            The Second one is about Anthony Banning Jim,explaining why he did that.

            Jim Hunt has been exposed!

          • Gail Combs says:

            Thanks Tommy,
            I already read them.

            You really really have to work to get Anthony to toss you off his website.

          • Gail Combs says:

            OH, and those comments not only prove Jimmy Boy’s dishonesty but also his very close connection to the ClimAstrologists and probable paid Disinfo-agent status.

            That makes him lower than whale feces in my opinion.

          • AndyG55 says:

            ” “insults bordering on libel””

            “Truth is an absolute defence to libel claims, because one of the elements that must be proven in a defamation suit is falsity of the statement.”

            No-one has libelled you Jimbo, every insult levelled at you is the complete and provable TRUTH.

          • Gail Combs says:

            Jimmy Boy is blowing smoke again. He knows NOTHING of the libel laws in the USA.

          • Gail Combs says:

            OH, and the ‘libel’ crap is another strawman the ClimAstrologists want us to fight.

            All it means is we are over the target and hitting them where it hurts.

          • Colorado Wellington says:

            Concerning libel, don’t call him total idiot. He could try to take you to court, arguing “not total”.

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Gail – So “Congress shall make no law.. abridging the freedom of speech” but it’s fine with you and Tommy if Anthony Watts does it?

  6. Peter Ellis says:

    Old ice right on the southern fringe of the ice edge south of Svalbard? Something’s up with their measurements. This classification isn’t based on tracking data, it’s based on microwave emission and polarisation characteristics – see page 7 here.
    http://osisaf.met.no/docs/osisaf_cdop2_ss2_pum_sea-ice-edge-type.pdf

    The manual tells us what sort of conditions throw off the scoring, including wet/melting ice (so they can’t make any estimate in summer, only in winter), and areas of unusually rough 1st-year ice, e.g. after storms.

    Given that we know the characterisation is wrong at the fringe of the ice sheet this year – we know from extent data that the ice at the edge is less than 2 months old and it’s being called as multiyear ice – I would hesitate to trust the data for the centre of the ice sheet. Something is different about the ice quality this year, that’s about all you can say.

    • Jim Hunt says:

      Peter – I think you will find that the “deplorable” denizens turn their noses up at reading multi-page manuals.

      They rely on Tony to do their due diligence for them, and his diligence is indeed deplorable.

      • Sunsettommy says:

        Peter, make an useful comment for the purpose of helping others to better understand the uncertain nature of measuring Sea Ice,something I pointed out last fall, that it misses some of the thin ice,multi year ice.

        His comment is refreshingly free of accusations and adds to the debate by providing a viewpoint, that needs to be address more fully into the future.

        Meanwhile YOU Jimmy, make a “scurrilous” comment against people who have asked questions you ignore,then present a misleading position over a small region,while Tony make a post about the ENTIRE region.

        You are pathetic Jim.

        • Jim Hunt says:

          Have you read the manual yet Tommy. Even just page 7 as suggested by Peter?

          Andy is “the one LYING [his] a**e off” when he asserts:

          “OSI is bound to be more accurate than CIS because they track the sea ice movement for all of the Arctic”

          I have presented vast amounts of evidence that the OSI-SAF “Bayesian multi-sensor approach” is getting things wrong on the Pacific side of the Arctic this year.

          Peter argues that it’s getting things wrong on the Atlantic side too. At the risk of (repeating myself)^n, n → ∞:

          Why do Tony and Tommy persist with this nonsense?

          • AndyG55 says:

            The REALLY funny thing is that Jimbo doesn’t realise just how easily he is being played.

            TH says, “here boy”, and there is Jimbo, like a flapping brain-dead mullet on the hook . :-)

            Its like a trained rat doing a Pavlovian response. :-)

        • AndyG55 says:

          ZERO-proof Jimbo yaps again

          yap, yap, yap, .. !!!

          What does the Canadian ice service say about whole of Arctic multi year sea ice, little cowardly slime.

          You KNOW that DO NOT have any such data.

          You are just way too much of a cowardly, deceitful, LYING cretin to admit it. !!

        • AndyG55 says:

          “OSI is bound to be more accurate than CIS because they track the sea ice movement for all of the Arctic”

          This is an ABSOLUTE FACT !!

          CIS doesn’t do more than a tiny section of the Arctic .

          OAS will ALWAYS be more accurate, because they look at the whole Arctic.

          You have put you sewer-ridden foot in your fetid mouth, yet again.. Jimbo !!

          • Jim Hunt says:

            You’re doing a very good impersonation of a robotic expletive generator Andy! Can I safely assume that you haven’t RTFM? Perhaps a cockroach has crawled inside your OCR module?

            An extract from Peter’s recommended bedtime reading for you:

            Scatterometer data can be used to classify ice types (see e.g. Gohin and Cavanié, 1994):

            Usually multi-year ice has a rougher surface than first-year ice, and hence the backscatter often becomes larger over multi-year ice.

            Multi-year ice, in particular during winter, also has an additional backscatter signature compared to first-year ice as a result of volume scattering from brine pockets.

            It may occur that first-year ice in some cases has a very rough surface while multi-year ice surface has been smoothed after summer melt. In such cases the ASCAT parameter becomes more uncertain in distinguishing between the surface types, and its contribution in the Bayesian multi-sensor approach will be weighted less.

          • AndyG55 says:

            You really have a totally pointless life, don’t you Jimbo?

            Ask yourself why you are here.. and for once try to tell the truth, at least to yourself.

            You are doing absolutely nothing except making a MOCKERY of yourself the Exeter troughers who feed you their GIGO. !! Why ????????

            What does the Canadian Ice service say about whole of Arctic multi-year sea ice, COWARDLY little cockroach?

            Why are you SO, SO GUTLESS that you cannot answer a very simple question????

          • Jim Hunt says:

            It seems your optical sensors have failed too Andy!

            For anybody else here who isn’t deaf, dumb and blind, please note all the young, thin sea ice around Svalbard identified by SMOS that OSI-SAF currently classifies as “multi-year” ice.

            At the risk of (repeating myself)^n, n → ∞:

            Why do Tony, Tommy and Andy persist with this nonsense?

          • AndyG55 says:

            Poor Jimbo..

            Have you talked to OSI about your fairy tale??

            Or are you just reserving your clap-trap for TROLLING.

            What does CIS say about whole of Arctic multi-year sea ice, Jimbo

            Have you got one single piece of contrary data , Jimbo ??

            Or just baseless, slimy , worthless opinions?

            Still REFUSING to answer a very simple question, aren’t you, poor little cowardly cockroach/yellow-backed troll

          • AndyG55 says:

            Come on Jimbo, with your egotistical but unsupportable ARROGANCE, and your EXETER climate scam bum-chums, you must surely have approached OSI about this non-issue.

            Tell me Jimbo are you still CLIMATE CHANGE DENER #1.

            Do you STILL deny that for the first 3/4 of the Holocene, Arctic sea ice levels were much, much lower than now, often being summer ice free?

            Do you still DENY USA DOE real data from the 1950’s ???

            What is it that tells you to CONTINUALLY DENY FACTS about Arctic sea ice, Jimbo

            What slimy, anti-human agenda pushes your WILFUL DENIAL and WILFIL IGNORANCE of natural climate change ??

          • Jim Hunt says:

            What is wrong with you Andy?

            It’s bleedin’ obvious to anybody with even a vague appreciation of how Arctic satellite based products work that the OSI-SAF ice type info has “an issue” at the moment.

            You don’t even need to be familiar with the satellite products to understand that the sea ice edge to the north of the Barents Sea doesn’t currently consist of multi-year ice.

      • Gator says:

        Actually Genocide Jim, most of us are here because we did our own homework, and in my case, university work where I studied geology and climatology for several years. I have read virtually every paper that had been presented on the topic, and found not one that refutes natural variability.

        Amazing that you assist in mass murder, and then make derogatory comments about those of us trying to stop the genocide. You are a truly disgusting creature.

  7. gator69 says:

    God, this was so good, it’s worth posting again!

    Mornin’ Gator (UTC),

    Since you’re evidently an expert on such matters perhaps you could tell us how many deaths of “poor brown people” are attributable to fossil fuel emissions per annum?

    Sorry Genocide Jim, but your childish attempt to deflect from your own massive and purely evil daily carnage is about to be hammered.

    Fossil fuels save far more lives than they take. Fossil fuels have done more to save human life, and the environment, than any other efforts. If we still used trees as fuel, humans would die at an even greater rate than today, and we would have virtually no forests. If we still used whale oil, there would be no whales.

    Fossil fuels heat and cool our homes, they help us make modern medicines, and are critical in many ways to our survival.

    Even if you believe the worst case estimates of fossil fuel related deaths, it is less than 25% of your teams efforts towards starvation, alone! And I am so glad you asked me to flesh this out, as I have been waiting for months! Normally you are too much of a coward to even respond.

    FYI – I have yet to add up those that perish from disease and lack of shelter! The 7,000,000 annual deaths I have been hitting you over the head with daily does not include all the deaths for which you and your ghoulish team are responsible.

    Genocide Jim, the crap you are pushing benefits nobody but grantologists and greedy politicians. Your crap kills 21,000 innocent humans every day, with zero benefit to the planet and zero benefit to mankind.

    Thanks for acknowledging your genocide, Jim.

    Maybe you should look inward for your next Einstein Award.

    • Gail Combs says:

      Yes it was.

    • AndyG55 says:

      Everything that Jimbo holds dear in life…

      IS BECAUSE OF FOSSIL FUELS.

      He is just so, so, so dumb that he doesn’t even realise it !!

      WTF does he think powers that shiny new GIGO computer he is so in love with.

      Think of it, powered by wind power.. a fraction of the way to getting to “42”, and it shuts down because of no juice.

      DOH !!!!!

      • Gail Combs says:

        Heck AndyG

        They could not even mine the minerals, refine them, transport them, and fabricate them into the parts used to build that computer without Fossil Fuels!

        The Newcomen steam engine was invented to get the water out of mines for criminy sakes!

        Yes there were mines before that but they were surface mines.

    • Jim Hunt says:

      Once again Gator, you haven’t answered my question.

      Any chance?

      • Gator says:

        What mor do you need to know killer? I explained that worst case fantasy scenarios do not come even close to your genocide.

        Just how f@cking stupid are you. Reread my reply until you understand it, if you have the mental capacity that is.

        Or keep pissing on poor brown people as they die by the millions.

        • Jim Hunt says:

          Gator,

          At the risk of (repeating myself)^n, n → ∞:

          “Since you’re evidently an expert on such matters perhaps you could tell us how many deaths of “poor brown people” are attributable to fossil fuel emissions per annum?”

          • Gator says:

            Genocide Jim, I have answered your question. Deaths attributable to fossil fuels is negligible, especially considering the benefits of FF and the fact that your team murders 21,000 every day with zero benefit to mankind or planet.

            Your ghoulish insistence on knowing exact numbers of those who may be effected by a beneficial product is more than disturbing, as you plow ahead killing millions.

            Now your turn.

            If it was your family being starved to death by alarmists, would you care?

          • Gail Combs says:

            Jimmy Boy asks: “…how many deaths of “poor brown people” are attributable to fossil fuel emissions per annum?””

            Please note the usual warmist logical fallacy (strawman) conflating CO2 with ‘fossil fuel emissions’

            So the anwer is ZERO die from more CO2.

            People are dying from starvation or from the fumes off poorly ventilated fires burning animal dung or if they are lucky wood or coal. This type of household air pollution killed over 4 million people a year according to WHO.

            CLEAN burning Coal, Natural Gas or Diesel generators like we have here in the USA would SAVE lives.

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Gail – You’re the one “conflating CO2 with ‘fossil fuel emissions’”. Not me.

            At the risk of (repeating myself)^n, n → ∞:

            “Since you’re evidently an expert on such matters perhaps you could tell us how many deaths of “poor brown people” are attributable to fossil fuel emissions per annum?”

          • AndyG55 says:

            People we are referring to don’t get to use fossil fuel.

            So NONE. !!

            They die because slimebags like you and your pals won’t allow them to use fossil fuels , so they have to burn horse or cow or other dung or toxic woods, just to cook food to eat.

            They die because of the money WASTED on installing so-called renewable power , decimating the power supplies in 1st world countries. That money could so easily have been used for supply of reliable electricity, water, sanitation etc in the third world countries.

            But the heathen AGW religion would rather that didn’t happen, right Jimbo.

            But JUST DON’T CARE, do you Jimbo..just so long as you get to yap about minor losses of Arctic sea ice, as it recovers from the extremes of the late 1970.

            You really are one of the most putrid, evil people on this planet, Jimbo.

            The lowest of low-lifes.

          • Gator says:

            Genocide Jim is not intelligent enough to figure out that net effect of FF is saving lives. Or is he?

            GJ is either grossly ignorant of how the real world around him operates, or he hates poor brown people.

            Which is it Genocide Jim?

            And why don’t you stop being a pussy, and answer the question.

            If it was your family being starved to death by alarmists, would you be OK with that?

          • Gail Combs says:

            The 7,000,000 annual deaths Gator has been hitting you over the head with daily. And that does not include all the deaths for which you and your ghoulish team are responsible for in the UK, EU. USA and elsewhere.

          • AndyG55 says:

            This is the sort of CRAP that the world has to put up with from these AGW cretins

            https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/03/16/scientists-have-to-take-to-the-streets-climate-alarm-goes-past-11-now-up-to-12/

            I bet Jimbo believes every word of this..

            It comes from GIGO models , afterall. !!

            Come on Jimbo, another question..

            Do you accept ANY of what Shell-hummer is raving about…. really, do you ????

            Or are going to refuse to answer this question as well, like the cowardly little tape-worm you are.

      • Gator says:

        And how about answering my question.

        If it was your family that was being starved to death by the alarmists, would you care then?

        Answer the question scumbag.

      • Gail Combs says:

        Gator,
        You and I have been putting up that evidence for YEARS!

        Here you go Jimmy Boy, from several years ago:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        Alarmists want to decrease human made CO2 by 80% per Obama White House Statement.

        I did a quicky calculation and with out carbon based energy or nuclear power to take its place, you are looking at not the 1800s but the seventeen hundreds!

        People forget that coal was very much in use in the 1800s and a lot of farm machinery pulled by horse, mule or oxen was factory made. (First Agricultural Revolution) Without coal you are back to charcoal as fuel for forges and metal implements will be very very rare. Solar panels and modern wind turbines can not be replaced using the power they generate so you are back to hydro (If the eco-nuts allow dam building) and old fashion cloth and wood wind mills. And those wind mills would soon be raided for the wood to burn.

        Worse the western high tech people of today do not have the foggiest idea of how to survive without factory made equipment. Even the Amish buy factory equipment and they are the most well adapted to an 1800s lifestyle.

        This is what I posted back in 2011 (with the usual mangling of the URLs)
        ….
        I am going to comment on that.

        We get all types of “Soothing” crap from the propaganda machines and economic model projections about how it really is going to be “painless” So Let us look at what real facts tell us.

        The average for the USA is 335.9 million BTUs per person. (Total population: 246,081,000)
        (wwwDOT)nuicc.info/?page_id=1467 or (wwwDOT)fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40187.pdf

        In 1949, U.S. energy use per person stood at 215 million Btu. epb(DOT)lbl.gov/homepages/Rick_Diamond/docs/lbnl55011-trends.pdf
         epb.lbl.gov

        The U.S. in 1800 had a per-capita energy consumption of about 90 million Btu. (Total population: 5,308,483) (wwwDOT)bu.edu/pardee/files/2010/11/12-PP-Nov2010.pdf

        If the USA reduces its energy consumption by 80% it equals 45.18 million Btu. per person, given the increase in technology and hydro power, lets use the 1800 consumption level of about 90 million Btu. per person.

        What does that mean?
        The site inventors(DOT)about.com/library/inventors/blfarm4.htm helps us figure that out.

        Farmers made up about 90% of labor force  in 1790 and 69% of labor force in 1800. (2.6% in 1990)

        About 250-300 labor-hours required to produce 100 bushels (5 acres) of wheat with walking plow, brush harrow, hand broadcast of seed, sickle, and flail in 1830. (This is all by hand not animal power BTW) (1987 – 2-3/4 labor-hours required to produce 100 bushels but that takes lots of oil.)

        1810-30 saw the transfer of “manufacturing” from the farm and home to the shop and factory. It wasn’t until the 1840′s that we saw factory made farm machinery, labor saving devices and chemical fertilizers became at all common. It was in the 1860′s that kerosene lamps became popular.

        Also up until the 1850′s dung and wood were the major source of energy. dieoff(DOT)org/page199_files/image002.gif

        In other words for the USA to use HALF the energy per person that was used in 1800 we must abandon ALL factories and 90% of the population must return to subsistence farming using animals if enough farm machinary can be produced.

        Remember in 1800 there was only 2% of the current population in the USA. Solar and Wind just are not going to produce enough power to keep us in anything but a few lights, a few wells and if we are lucky a refrigerator for the entire town. FACTORIES use a huge amount of power and that is why cotton mills and other primitive factories were built on rivers.
        Anyone who tries to tell you differently is talking baffle gab because at present less than 9% of the US labor force is in manufacturing. The USA got rid of most of its really energy intense industry like smelting the ores to make machines. The USA shipped its factories to China and I mean that literally because I knew a guy whose business was packing up and shipping factories in New England to Israel.

        “Cut CO2 emissions by 80% by 2050???

        What do they plan to do wipe out 75% of the population to do it?

        What no one ever mentions is civilization is built on energy.
        For most of history that energy was from slaves and animals. Only with the advent of machinery did abolishing slavery actually become a viable economic alternative. Get rid of dependable energy and the labor saving machines it powers and you have to substitute human and animal energy. Unfortunately this means a sharp reduction in food production, population and miserable living conditions for all but the select few.

        It only takes a day trying to clear brush from land with loppers and a buck saw to really appreciate a tractor or bulldozer and the harsh reality of what labor saving devices really are all about.
        …..

        Here is one (greenie) paper on energy use (It under estimates the pre-industrial ag era energy use drastically) (wwwDOT)wou.edu/las/physci/GS361/electricity%20generation/HistoricalPerspectives.htm

        The above paper has Advanced Agricultural Man as 26,000 Kcal per capita (1850’s) and the technological man of 1970 in the U.S. consuming approximately 230,000 Kcal of energy per day. ~ 8.8 times as much energy consumed) Other sources have the per capita use for the USA as 333.8 million BTUs per person in 2006 before the economy crashed: (wwwDOT)fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40187.pdf

        The U.S. in 1800 had a per-capita energy consumption of about 90 million Btu. (wwwDOT)bu.edu/pardee/files/2010/11/12-PP-Nov2010.pdf

        This is only 3.7 times as much energy consumed NOT 8.8 times If you are talking GREEN you can not use the much lower energy demand in the UK “.. at about 26 million BTU per capita in 1800, and again most of this would have been for heating and cooking. [because] The energy was largely from coal…”

        This “Advanced Agricultural Man” of the greenies is when people were using 250-300 labor-hours to produce 100 bushels of wheat from 5 acres of land with walking plow, brush harrow, hand broadcast of seed, and a sickle, and flail for harvesting by hand. It was not until the 1830’s that you had the reaper, threshing machine, and iron faced interchangable plow invented and the 1940s was when they were manufactured in factories. Once you have factories that energy consumption is going to increase. The change from hand power to horse power (the first American agricultural revolution) was not until the 1860s when methods of attaching animals to farm machinery was developed.

        For comparison in 1987 it only took 3 labor-hours to produce 100 bushels of wheat from 3 acres of land (Ain’t CO2 fertilization great) with tractors, 35-foot sweep disk, 30-foot drill, and a 25-foot self-propelled combine. By 1970 one American farmer was supplying over 75 people with food.

        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

        So there you go Jimmy Boy. WE did the investigation and calculations and figured out Warmists with their fairy tales of a non-carbon, non-nuclear society are completely full of chicken feces.

      • AndyG55 says:

        Once again Jimbo, you haven’t answered the question.

        What do the Canadians say about all of Arctic multi-year sea ice.?

        I don’t expect an answer because we all know that you are too cowardly and gutless.

        • Jim Hunt says:

          Andy – Do you classify these newsworthy folks as “poor brown people”?

          http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/16/africa/gallery/kenya-and-sudan-drought/

          • AndyG55 says:

            “What do the Canadians say about all of Arctic multi-year sea ice.?”

            Jimbo, the diseased rodent….. still refuses to answer.

          • AndyG55 says:

            Drought is a NATURAL part of climate . always has been , always will be

            But you and your slimebag AGW cultists DENY these people the reliable power supplies and development because you continue to waste world resources on decimating 1st world systems with unreliable intermittent energy supply.

            And please , don’t stoop so, so low as to pretend you actually give a single thought for these unfortunate people.

            You are a KNOWN anti-humanity advocate.

            You and your religion actually worship tiny changes in Arctic sea ice more than you do the deaths and hardship your cultreligion cause throughout the world.

            You are a seriously morally sick piece of human trash, Jimbo.

          • gator69 says:

            Andy – Do you classify these newsworthy folks as “poor brown people”?

            Wow. Drought in a desert. Fascinating.

            Imagine if we had the resources to help.

            Oh Wait! We Do!

            But Genocide Jim and his gang of mass murderers insist we squander our resources to fight nature, and leave millions to starve annually.

            Another swing, and another massive miss! Genocide Jim rides again!

  8. Joe says:

    “Multiyear Ice Extent up 116% Over The Past Decade” But at the same time, we cannot ignore that 5+ year old sea ice has been shrinking: http://nsidc.org/soac/sea-ice-age-month#seaiceage

    • AndyG55 says:

      You also cannot ignore the fact that 1979 was a year of extreme sea ice, up with those of the little ice age.

      Nor can you ignore that fact that reconstructions and bio-data clearly show that for the first 3/4 of the Holocene, there was often zero summer sea ice.

      Nor can you ignore that US DOE and Russia data is now showing that the levels during the 1920-1960 were probably not dissimilar to now.

      • Jim Hunt says:

        Mornin’ Andy (UTC),

        Need I say more?

        • AndyG55 says:

          Yawn

          Jimbo presents fabricated data yet again.

          Data that DENIES the DOE data.

          So sad Jimbo.

          What does the Canadian data say about whole of Arctic multi-year sea ice, Jimbo.

          Come on, little diseased rodent, we are still waiting for your answer. What disease makes you such a coward, Jimbo?

        • AndyG55 says:

          Arctic temperatures.

          WOW, look at that dip to 1965 then back up again

          Does that look like a NATURAL cycle, or what.

          Of course it is not reflected in AGW sea ice farce reconstructions, is it Jimbo.

          How are Exeter boys going? Are they paying well enough in cash or in “favours”.

          You love your “favours” don’t you Jimbo.

          I bet they will be so, so glad you continue to highlight their trough swilling scam. !! ;-)

          The chance to ingratiate yourself to the Exeter climate troughers is never to be missed, is it, little rodent.

          • AndyG55 says:

            Funny that you haven’t got the intelligence to realise the amount of DAMAGE your MOCKERY of the AGW scam is doing to their cause.

            Every time you post, people see your LIES and DECEIT and AVOIDANCE of simple questions.

            Every time you post, people read, and ask themselves, “do I really want to side with this fetid piece of anti-human slime”

            You Jimbo, with your inability to answer a simple, straight question , have probably converted more people to realising that the AGW agenda is what it is, a CON and a SCAM, than anything I could ever do.

            That is why your continued NO-RESPONSE is so devastating to your cause.

            That is why I will continue to ask, until you ADMIT THE TRUTH.

            The more you slime and wriggle to avoid answering, the more you play into my hands. :-)

            Its really funny that you haven’t figured that out yet. :-)

            Thank you so much for your continued support, and your continued undermining of the anti-human AGW cause, little cowardly yellow-backed troll. :-)

            Please keep going… you create more sceptics with your every post :-)

          • Jim Hunt says:

            “Its like a trained rat doing a Pavlovian response”

          • AndyG55 says:

            Yep, you sure are Jimbo.

            At least you are starting to realise it, little rodent.

            TH only has to post a comment on Arctic sea ice, and the slimy Jimbo rodent is there.

            So funny to watch.

            Tell you what Jim,bo.

            I bet you haven’t got the GUTS to NOT respond next thread on Arctic sea ice.

            Lets see just how much TH has you at his beck and call. :-)

            But we KNOW you are a totally gutless little troll.

            Wouldn’t you agree, Jimbo.

            You could of course pprove me wrong and answer this question…

            What does the Canadian sea ice service say about whole of Arctic multi-year sea ice?

            Time for GUTS and GLORY, jimbo.. !

            but you have NEITHER. !

          • Jim Hunt says:

            ROFLMAO Andy,

            Maybe I’ll be there, and maybe I’ll have better things to do?

            Who knows? Only time will tell!

          • Jim Hunt says:

            Andy – Tony’s spouting balderdash about long term MASIE trends, so………

            Sorry to disappoint you.

      • Joe says:

        Very good, thanks Gail, Andy.

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